1 re-examine.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. In your interview to the president of the Association of Writers

5 of Croatia, her name is Marica Mikuljan, this is Nova Matica [phoen]

6 number 7, dated 1992, in response to her question how come you wrote a

7 book, you said, inter alia: My original idea was to call the book "How I

8 toppled Yugoslavia." Mr. Genscher suggested that perhaps in Europe, such

9 a title would not be well received. Genscher added that we all

10 contributed to the break-up of Yugoslavia, and that seemed acceptable to

11 me, hence the title of my book. That's what you said. And then in

12 response to her next question, what was your prognosis for the Balkans

13 after the drama was over, you say, inter alia, in your response: Let me

14 conclude. It is logical that if the opponent was declared to be the devil

15 a priori, then his demonic family should be destroyed too, his demonic

16 country and his entire demonic history. Now, this brings us to the

17 following question: Who declared the Serbs in advance a priori to be the

18 devil, the demon? Did you do that on your own or was it the leadership

19 that you were a part of, or was this done in conquered [As interpreted]

20 with Genscher and what is your role in this kind of a priori

21 qualification?

22 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with several questions which were

23 bound up there. The first was the quotation attributed to you about the

24 possible title of a book "How I toppled Yugoslavia." Perhaps you can deal

25 with that. And then there was a question about your prognosis for the

1 Balkans. That was the second one.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct that the title of the

3 first edition of my book was "How we toppled Yugoslavia." The second

4 edition was entitled "How Yugoslavia was toppled." I said this in order

5 to make things quite objective, namely, Croatia, Slovenia, and other

6 republics sought a confederal model. Serbia asked for a so-called firm

7 federation. The status quo could not remain forever. That meant that we

8 had to become independent. As the Socialist Federal Republic of

9 Yugoslavia disappeared, we all took part in the process, all of us who

10 wanted changes and a confederacy that would have a time limit of three to

11 five years and also those who were toppling the Federation in order to

12 establish a different kind of federation that Croatia, Slovenia,

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia could not accept. That is why in the

14 second title I tried to make it sound more objective, and the contents

15 show what this book is really about.

16 As for the other part, that is not a proper quotation. I never

17 said any such thing. Who did this and who in this way deceived the

18 accused, I really have no idea.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Very well. Now that you have been saying that I created the

21 so-called Serbian bloc in the Presidency, I assume that before that you

22 should bear in mind that all divisions in the Presidency were created on

23 the basis of political divisions regarding ideas as to what the destiny of

24 Yugoslavia would be, not on the basis of somebody's influence. Is that

25 right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?

1 A. Well, it is clear that the leadership in Kosovo was toppled and

2 that autonomy was destroyed, that the leadership in Vojvodina was toppled

3 and that autonomy was destroyed there. And also that the leadership in

4 Montenegro was toppled. These three representatives, along with Borislav

5 Jovic, who represented Serbia proper, were the Serbian bloc. It can be

6 seen by how they voted. And also when Borislav Jovic resigned, others

7 also resigned. But Milosevic comes forth immediately. There is no more

8 Yugoslavia, he says. We are not going to carry out the constitution.

9 There are no valid decisions reached by the Presidency for us. And he, as

10 the president of Serbia, who had to come to a session of the Presidency

11 because according to the constitution he would have to stand in for the

12 member of the Presidency from that republic if he were leave, he said that

13 he would not do that. Now, I am really interested in hearing who was it

14 that was toppling Yugoslavia? We wanted a different concept, and that was

15 legal and legitimate. We thought that this kind of Yugoslavia was

16 untenable. Let us work in favour of a model that was tenable. And if it

17 cannot be sustained, then we are going to part our ways in peace,

18 cooperate mutually as the Czechs and the Slovaks do, for example.

19 Q. Mr. Mesic, what you said just now is what you said yesterday too,

20 and then you played a video cassette that speaks to the contrary. Because

21 I never said there that there is no Yugoslavia. On the contrary, I spoke

22 in favour of Yugoslavia. And as for this resignation, as I explained at

23 that time, that's what you broadcast, it was a reaction to the fact that

24 the Presidency did not want to pass its own decisions, and that is why the

25 assembly of Serbia refused Jovic's resignation and returned him to his

1 position two days later. And when I said I would not go there instead of

2 him meant that I thought that he should go back there and work there and

3 that his resignation was a reaction to the fact that the Presidency

4 refused to carry out its own decisions?

5 JUDGE MAY: What is the question for the witness?

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. The film that you showed, where did you see that? And you showed

8 me on television. Where did you hear me say that Yugoslavia did not exist

9 any more and all the rest that you said, and that the Presidency was not

10 going to function and Borislav Jovic, the bit about Borislav Jovic? The

11 events showed you otherwise.

12 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer this.

13 Can you help us with this, Mr. Mesic, or not?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I didn't show any

15 excerpts. That has nothing to do with me. It is the Prosecution and

16 indictment that calls for that. As far as I'm concerned, I don't much

17 like watching television images of Slobodan Milosevic. That is far from

18 my thoughts. As for the tape itself, we were able to see the tape.

19 Borislav Jovic and Mr. Bucin tendered their resignations and straight away

20 we see the advent of Slobodan Milosevic, who says that he's not going to

21 use his right to represent Borislav Jovic in the Presidency until that man

22 had not attended the assembly meeting and until his resignation was

23 refused. So once again the accused doesn't seem to handle arithmetic too

24 well, and now I can see that he doesn't handle time too well either.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. Mr. Mesic, the aim assembly was scheduled. You know that Jovic

2 returned to work in the Presidency following a decision of the Assembly of

3 his republic and that what you're saying is nonsense.

4 JUDGE MAY: No, we're not going on in this way. Let's move on to

5 another topic. You haven't asked questions about any of the documents

6 that were produced. If you want to do that, Mr. Milosevic, you should do

7 so in the 40 or 50 minutes that remain for you.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall do my best, Mr. May, to deal

9 with that too, but as I was informed only the day before yesterday that

10 the witness would be available two and a half times less than was

11 originally planned, I'm trying to make a selection of the more important

12 issues.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Is it true, Mr. Mesic, that the political position of Serbia

15 Montenegro was to stand up against Yugoslavia's breakdown? And is it also

16 true that there was no firm federation as you termed it that was proposed

17 by the representatives of Serbia and Montenegro but quite the contrary,

18 that it was a democratic federation that they put forth, a democratic one,

19 a free one, and I'm sure you will recall that, for example, Serbia, at a

20 meeting of the presidents of all the republics, which was held in

21 Sarajevo, supported the proposal by Izetbegovic and Gligorov, offering a

22 loose type of federation, the loosest possible type, but nonetheless a

23 state of sorts and not some kind of what you would call alliance,

24 confederal alliance for a period of five years. So Serbia lent its

25 support to that particular plan, which meant that all the republics would

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13 English transcripts.

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1 gain autonomy, but nonetheless would keep them within the realms of a

2 state. What we wanted to do was to preserve Yugoslavia, and that is what

3 neither you or anybody else can challenge. Isn't that right, Mr. Mesic?

4 A. I think the accused has stated precisely what should have been

5 stated. They were against Yugoslavia, opposed to it. They were offering

6 something that Croatian and Slovenia found unacceptable. Therefore, he

7 was opposed to Yugoslavia, the kind of Yugoslavia that existed at that

8 time, and that's precisely what I'm claiming. He was against Yugoslavia.

9 He was opposed to Yugoslavia, and that is why he used the military option

10 and worked towards the breakdown of Yugoslavia, with a military option.

11 Q. How were you able to conclude that we were opposed to Yugoslavia

12 when the entire public knew full well that we were striving only for the

13 preservation of Yugoslavia, and what we said was that that was the best

14 solution for all the South Slav peoples and nobody would have a better

15 life in any other way, and as to freedoms, rights, the independence and

16 autonomy of the republics, they were never brought into question at all?

17 A. Had we accepted the proposals made by the accused, then I suppose

18 we had the nice kind of time that the Albanians have had in Kosovo and we

19 didn't want to taste the beauties of that.

20 Q. Ah, I see. In Croatia you were under some kind of pressure, as

21 far as I understand it, pressure from Serbia, while Yugoslavia was living.

22 I never noted any pressures of that kind. I don't know where you saw them

23 prevalent. Perhaps you could tell me.

24 A. I think that this question is nonsense, nonsensical.

25 Q. Except in tourism, perhaps, because there were a lot of tourists

1 from Serbia coming to the Adriatic Coast.

2 Is it true, Mr. Mesic, that the first division in the Presidency,

3 the first rift, was caused after your statement that you wanted to be the

4 last president of Yugoslavia?

5 A. The accused has a terribly rich imagination and he seems to be

6 very adept at distorting things. He knows full well what I said on the

7 occasion at that time.

8 Q. Well, what did you say?

9 A. I came to Belgrade as somebody who had been elected to the

10 Presidency, and my statement, the statement I made, that Yugoslavia in

11 that model, as it stood, could not survive. Everything that happened

12 later on bore out the fact that I was quite right and that we had to find

13 a political solution, because unless we found a political solution, I

14 would be the last president. Not that I wanted to be the last president,

15 but that I would be the last president, and that is in fact what I was. I

16 was the last president of Yugoslavia, through the will of those people who

17 opted for war, who selected the war option, through the will of those who

18 refused to accept a political solution but who gave arms and weapons into

19 the hands of those who were not to blame. They were to blame because they

20 accepted to bear arms. But the person most to blame was the person who

21 supplied them with arms, who put those arms and weapons in their hands.

22 Q. So it is not being challenged that when you took up the position

23 of president, or rather, a member of the Presidency, as a member from

24 Croatia, that you said that Yugoslavia could not survive, and it is not

25 clear to you; you refuse to accept the fact that this was the cause of the

1 rift in the Presidency, statements of this kind on your part, and the fact

2 that these assertions of yours could not be tenable in view of the office

3 you held.

4 JUDGE MAY: What you must not do is to misrepresent the evidence.

5 Now, the witness has answered the question. He's told you what he said.

6 He's told you he blames your government for what happened. Now, I

7 don't think we're going to get much further on that simply arguing about

8 it.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you know very well, as a

10 lawyer, that every state has a constitution, and that until that

11 constitution is changed, even if it is a bad constitution, that it is in

12 force and holds true nonetheless. And when I say that the statements made

13 by Mr. Mesic, who, according to that very constitution, was elected to

14 perform the function at the Yugoslav level, that is to say, the top

15 Yugoslav level, that this was untenable with that constitution and with

16 the relationship that he had towards Yugoslavia. So what I am saying is

17 that it was he himself and no Milosevic who was the cause of the rift that

18 took place in the Presidency.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Do you recall, for example, that --

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have made that point several

22 times. We have heard you. We understand your case. We will deal with it

23 in due course. We will have to make our own minds up about it. Now,

24 time is limited, and you have to concentrate on asking this witness

25 questions, if you've got any, beyond making statements. I suggest you

1 move on to another topic, we having heard both sides on this particular

2 issue about the early days of the Presidency.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Please, your thesis is that I forced Montenegro not to accept

5 Carrington's plan; right? Is it clear to you that that is just not true?

6 JUDGE MAY: Let him answer.

7 A. I never claimed that anywhere. I never said that the accused had

8 forced Montenegro not to accept Carrington's plan. All I'm saying is that

9 the accused, with the policy he waged, broke down the autonomous Vojvodina

10 and Kosovo and toppled the leadership, which was a legally elected one, in

11 Montenegro, and that he implemented an anti-bureaucratic revolution, as

12 it's called, by which in fact he destroyed Yugoslavia. Because if you

13 destroy the constituent elements of a federation, those component

14 parts - and they were the two provinces - then Yugoslavia can no longer

15 exist either. And that fate, the fate of Kosovo, is something that we did

16 not wish to repeat for ourselves.

17 Let me be quite clear to the very end now. Why didn't the accused

18 fuss over the fact that the Serbs were fleeing from Croatia? Because he

19 needed that critical mass of people to populate Kosovo once he had

20 expelled the Albanians from Kosovo. That is the plan the accused had, to

21 throw out the Albanians and to bring in the Serbs from Croatia to populate

22 the area. That was what he had in his mind: to destabilise Albanian and

23 to destabilise Macedonia as well, because that mass of Albanians coming in

24 would, of course, destabilise those two weak countries. That was his

25 plan, and he counted upon the fact that he would be the factor and element

1 which the international community would seek to calm the region, but the

2 NATO pact stepped in to stop those awful plans of his.

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Mesic, your imagination is commendable, but unfortunately --

5 A. Thank you for saying that.

6 Q. -- But unfortunately, there are many defects in it. First of all,

7 as regards Montenegro, do you recall that in Montenegro a referendum was

8 held; that is to say, it was not an anti-bureaucratic revolution which

9 engulfed the people and subjugated the people, but there was a referendum

10 at which the citizens of Montenegro stated their views and opted for

11 Yugoslavia? It was not under pressure of any kind. Is that --

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

13 A. I have already answered that. Everything that was done in that

14 particular region was done through the will -- and that is to say not only

15 the will of Milosevic but on the will of his regime, the toppling of those

16 leaderships. That was what he wanted to do. He held speeches in front of

17 millions. He mobilised the populace. He convinced them that all the

18 Serbs would live in one single state, and obviously when you seize other

19 people's territories.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Show me that speech of mine. Show me one speech in which I said a

22 single word against Croatia or Yugoslavia. Do you have one single example

23 to show us of that kind?

24 A. Of course. If you claim that the Serbs in Croatia have the right

25 to self-determination, they then decide, not the Serbs in Croatia but the

* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-11.htm

The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his defense.

Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and European Courts.

Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and experts from Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose media lies. Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some friendly and some hostile to the truth.

The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism, violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.

All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr. Milosevic to have the best possible support for attacking NATO's lies.

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