1 Wednesday, 2 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 WITNESS: STJEPAN MESIC [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] How long a prison sentence did you serve in

11 Gradisce?

12 A. One year.

13 Q. You were there together with Petar Sale and another person in the

14 same cell; right?

15 A. Yes, in the same penitentiary, but we were not in the same room.

16 Q. And you know, later, that the state security service recorded your

17 activities with the third person that you were with?

18 A. I don't know anything about that.

19 Q. Is it correct -- I mean, I imagine that you do know that at that

20 time you were monitored, taken care of, I don't know how to put it, by

21 Milanko Orescanin, an operations officer of the state security service?

22 A. This is the first time I hear that name.

23 Q. He worked at the state security service in Slavonski Brod?

24 A. This is the first time I hear that name, and in Slavonski Brod, I

25 was there only a few times in my life.

1 Q. Well, he had very detailed information about your activities

2 concerning that person. Tell me: Do you know anything about that?

3 Because there is evidence that after the HDZ victory, you were the person

4 who gave instructions to have that operations officer killed, the man from

5 Slavonski Brod, and he was liquidated on the 15th of August, 1991, a

6 religious holiday, Sunday.

7 Q. This is the first I ever hear of it. I never held any executive

8 positions and I had no influence whatsoever on anyone's liberty or life.

9 Q. But there are persons, there are witnesses, Mr. Mesic, who

10 according to your instructions kidnapped that person, Mijokovic, Milan

11 from Slavonski Brod and Jokic, Ivan from Slavonski Brod?

12 A. You're probably the one who is socialising with them. I have no

13 idea.

14 Q. Also according to your instructions, Momo Devrnja, a Serb from

15 Orahovac, a forwarder was liquidated, a man who had a conflict with you.

16 I imagine you remember that?

17 A. Just as much influence as I had on Lincoln's assassination.

18 That's about it.

19 Q. On the 24th of December, Muselinovic, Miodrag with his wife Milici

20 and neighbour Desanka Radonjic [phoen] was the chief of SUP in Orahovac

21 and he was killed according to your instructions.

22 A. The same answer as for the previous one.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the question.

24 The speed is impossible to follow.

25 JUDGE MAY: We'll have to pause. The interpreters can't keep up

1 this pace. Now, you both speak the same language; therefore, it would be

2 better if there was a pause between the question and answer. And also

3 after the answer. Mr. Milosevic, will you bear that in mind.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. According to your instructions, Serb villages Pusina, Kokocak,

6 Kraskovici [phoen], Brekoracani [phoen], Gornja Pistana, Slatinski

7 Drenovac were destroyed; is that correct or is that not correct?

8 A. That has nothing to do with actual facts. I found out about the

9 torching of these villages and I protested. I launched by protest with

10 President Tudjman.

11 Q. With who?

12 A. With President Tudjman, and you had also socialised with him.

13 Q. You were involved in the Hefner affair in 1967, the one that had

14 to do with the selling of white slaves, and also you remember that Tito

15 referred to an affair that you were involved in that had to do with buying

16 machinery for the textile industry in Leskovac.

17 A. No. This is just a figment of someone's imagination.

18 Q. Is it correct that you were the main organiser of the affair that

19 had to do with military records, abolishing the security records that were

20 kept? Need I remind you of why you did that?

21 A. This is no affair. This has to do with the following: The

22 National Defence authorities kept records about young men who were

23 supposed to go and do their military service. As president of the

24 municipality, I got information that Croats were not being sufficiently

25 active in the army, that they did not enroll in military schools. They

1 did not take up commissions and they did not go to military schools in

2 general. I was surprised by the fact that it was only Serbs who were

3 applying. I realised that there was one particular item in

4 questionnaires, that is to say, item 32, and this was something that was

5 filled by the officials of the Secretariats of National Defence and I

6 asked to see what was written there. Since a person involved protested

7 because it said that his father -- his name is Slavko Sulovnjak. He was

8 in the army. And in that questionnaire, it said that his father was an

9 Ustasha from 1941 and that he was tried as a war criminal. However, his

10 father had been a partisan. His father had retired as an non-commissioned

11 officer of the Yugoslav People's Army. I asked for this to be looked

12 into. They did look into it and they established that for over 90 per

13 cent of Croatian young men, it said that they were children of enemies,

14 and that therefore they could not attend such schools. Serb children did

15 have passing grades, though, so to speak. That is what I know about item

16 32.

17 Q. That's what the Croatian authorities wrote. It was not the Serb

18 authorities.

19 A. It was Serbs who were employed in the National Defence

20 authorities, and I can even give you names if you're really interested.

21 Q. Are you trying to say that Croats were not employed in Croatia in

22 National Defence authorities?

23 A. It is only when I came to Orahovac as president of the

24 municipality, the first Croat became head of the Secretariat for National

25 Defence.

1 Q. All right. Is it correct that while you were in prison, and this

2 Petar Sale, by the way, is a well-known chauvinist from Sibenik; is that

3 right? While you were in prison, the officials of the state security

4 service of Croatia tried to employ your services for the rest of your

5 prison term?

6 A. Again this is a figment of your imagination. I did have a prison

7 sentence of two years and two months. This was the first-instance court

8 that made that ruling. However, the Supreme Court reduced the sentence to

9 one year and I served one year. I don't really see why anybody would try

10 to enlist my services. This is again pure fantasy.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mesic, remind us again: When was this prison

12 sentence? What years.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 1975, from May 1975 until May

14 1976.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Is it correct that after that you worked for the state security

17 service of Croatia in the sector for internal enemies at that?

18 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic.

19 The next question is: What was the sentence imposed for?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For participation in the Croatian

21 Spring. I was president of a municipality and I took part in the Croatian

22 Spring, as it was called. I can also give you a list of all the crimes

23 that I was accused of, if the Trial Chamber is interested in that.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

1 Q. When was this Croatian Spring?

2 A. One of the crimes was that I said: Let the devil get warm by our

3 Croatian fire but let him not extinguish the fire. At that time, a

4 topical question throughout Yugoslavia was the struggle for constitutional

5 amendments. I said for all of those who wish to see democracy, there is

6 place in the train leading to democracy. Every person who tries to

7 sidetrack that train by putting his foot in front of it can only remain

8 without that foot. That's what I said.

9 I also said that the Croats tread their path to the Adriatic Sea

10 with their own sabres and all the rest followed in their footsteps. These

11 are the crimes for which I was sentenced to two years, two months in

12 prison.

13 Q. Is it true that you worked then for the state security service of

14 Croatia in the department for internal enemies and that after that you

15 started working for the state security service of the Yugoslav army?

16 A. The truth is that I asked for a passport. For 15 years I did not

17 have a passport. I asked for a passport to be issued to me as a free

18 citizen. I was refused a passport, and I lodged a complaint because of

19 that. And I did that every year, a few times every year, as a matter of

20 fact. That is more or less all the contact I had with the police. All

21 the rest just pertains to the realm of fantasy.

22 Q. All right. You did not work for the state security service of

23 Croatia, you did not work for the counter-intelligence service of the

24 army, I assume. And it is assumed that your relationship with Spegelj

25 dates back to those days, that is to say, some other period of time. Do

1 you know that Franjo Tudjman replaced Spegelj as well because it was his

2 suspicion that he was an agent of the KOS and that is why he fled across

3 the border with the assistance of Josip Manolic, former head of the

4 Croatian police, with a false passport issued in a false name?

5 A. This is pure fantasy and that can be proved by the following: In

6 order to get a job after prison, I applied at 150 different posts.

7 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish. Yes. Let him finish.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question was different, and it

9 had to do with Spegelj.

10 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish and give his explanation.

11 A. What is the logic? Why would I work for the state security

12 service and I could not find a job? And I applied at 150 different

13 places, and I did not get a job anywhere. What is the logic of that? And

14 for 15 years I did not have a passport.

15 As for Spegelj, the situation was well known. At a meeting of the

16 Croatian political leadership, Spegelj presented a plan, which is referred

17 to in Croatia as the Spegelj Plan. He proposed that warehouses be seized

18 from the Yugoslav People's Army, where weapons were, depots with the

19 weapons of the Yugoslav People's Army, and not to touch military barracks

20 but to take weapons. Since in these depots there were several hundreds or

21 perhaps thousands of tanks, Spegelj said: If we take these weapons, for

22 each tank we have people who are trained, who were in the army, and if

23 Milosevic wants to move against Croatia, we have the resources to meet

24 him. In this way, we are going to avoid a war, because the Yugoslav army

25 is in disarray. However, if we go on waiting, the Yugoslav army will

1 consolidate itself, it's going to become a Serb army, and Milosevic is

2 going for try to conquer Croatian territories with it. Tudjman disagreed

3 with that. I was the only one who voted in favour of that proposal, and

4 that is why General Spegelj left his post.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I see that you really have this hang-up about Milosevic. You

7 mentioned me in every other sentence you uttered yesterday. On the basis

8 of what you said just now, Mr. Mesic, is that to show that you were more

9 radical than Tudjman in your viewpoints that had to do with the war, more

10 radical than Tudjman?

11 A. I'm really pleased that this question was put to me, because I

12 responded in one case how war can be averted; to take weapons from the

13 hands of the army and to avoid the war. Because Croatia would have

14 something to meet Milosevic with if he were to attack. So this is a case

15 about which I think I was right until the present day, and I think that

16 General Spegelj was right too. Many lives would have been saved, both of

17 Serbs and Croats, had it been that way.

18 Q. Mr. Mesic, is it clear to you, in connection with these

19 accusations levelled against Milosevic, and Milosevic's purported command

20 over the army, what you said just now, that I really had -- had I actually

21 had the possibility of commanding the army, Yugoslavia would not have

22 fallen apart, there would not have been a civil war. Regrettably, I did

23 not have that possibility, so what happened, happened. But please answer

24 the following: You spoke about motives a few minutes ago. Motive for a

25 cooperation with the state security service. Could your motive not have

Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and English transcripts.

1 been to reduce your prison sentence from two years to one year? You said

2 it yourself. Just like now, the motive for cooperation here is to avoid

3 punishment and responsibility that is your due, since you are a person --

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you know you have to ask questions here

5 and not make speeches. The witness has said that he did not cooperate

6 with the state security service, so there seems little point going on

7 about it. Your next question.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Now that we're on the subject, that we're discussing such

11 questions: On the 24th of April -- on the 26th of April, 1994, you stated

12 for Feral Tribune: There were quite a few murders in the case of which

13 the perpetrators, though known, are not in prison yet. People know who

14 killed Reihl-Kir and Saban Krivokuca, the Zec family. The murders of the

15 Zec family said themselves that they raped the woman and her 12-year-old

16 daughter and killed them. One of them is employed by the Ministry of

17 Defence. You know it's not easy to sit at the same table with a person

18 whose bodyguard took a 12-year-old child, followed a bullet into his head

19 and then threw him into the garbage. It is my understanding that it has

20 become clear to the Croat people as well that things have happened that

21 are leading us to an abyss. So that is your own statement, isn't it? I

22 have quoted you correctly, I believe. My question is: The changes in

23 Croatia - you are now president of Croatia - is this fact --

24 JUDGE MAY: Let us first of all deal with the quotation which you

25 have attributed to the witness.

1 Mr. Mesic, that is a quotation from a paper in April 1994. Is the

2 quotation correct, and is there anything you want to say about it before

3 we move on to another subject?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. I always struggled for the

5 rule of law, and I did assert that crimes had been committed, and the rule

6 of law had to prevail. I am struggling for the rule of law now as well.

7 I'm struggling for ascertaining individual guilt and responsibility,

8 because in that case, collective responsibility will be halted.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. All right. My question was: The changes in Croatia which have

11 taken place, and you have been elected president, has that led to this

12 clearing up and settling of accounts with the killers that you yourself

13 said were known, that their names were known, the people who did the

14 killings were known? Now, you, as head of the Croatian state now, have

15 you succeeded in clearing all this up and bringing these people to

16 justice?

17 A. The people that you are talking about in this particular case are

18 undergoing trial in Croatia at the moment.

19 Q. You mean all the victims that you mentioned, or just some of them?

20 A. The ones that we learnt about have been taken to trial, but none

21 of the cases have been completed, no files have been closed, and

22 investigations are under way and the perpetrators will be prosecuted.

23 Q. Do you yourself feel responsible for what took place and for the

24 crimes that were committed while you yourself occupied the highest posts

25 and offices in Croatia after Tudjman, that is to say, up until 1994?

* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-2.htm