1 rebel Serbs. I don't want anybody to think that I am blaming the Serbs in

2 Croatia. No. The greatest portion of Serbs lived in Zagreb, for

3 example. There were more of them living in Zagreb than the entire Krajina

4 region. I'm talking about the insurgent Serbs, those who rebelled and

5 those who wanted to annex Serbia, this to Serbia, and made that decision,

6 and so did Milosevic's regime, led by him, and they put out the slogan of

7 all Serbs living in one state. So those affiliated Serbs too. It is true

8 that Serbia did not pass a decision which would make this legal, but

9 neither were they opposed to it.

10 Q. That is just not true. That, quite simply, is a lie. And any

11 mention of one state referred to Yugoslavia as a common interest, the

12 common interest of all the Yugoslav peoples. And what I was saying was

13 only in that way would the Serbs be able to live in one country if we

14 preserve Yugoslavia, being that one country. But I also said that all the

15 Muslims could live in one country if we were to preserve Yugoslavia and

16 all the other nations and nationalities scattered around Yugoslavia, and

17 nobody minded that at all. That is the truth, Mr. Mesic, and I think that

18 your memory will serve you well there. But what you're doing now is

19 speculating. But Is what I'm saying right or not?

20 A. My memory serves me very well, thank you. Because the accused

21 said if the Slovenes want to leave, let them leave, and you should go as

22 soon as possible. If the Croats want to leave, let them go too. But

23 quite obviously all the Serbs would remain in one single state. In other

24 words, they remain in that state by virtue of their territory, the state

25 that he calls Yugoslavia. I call it an invalid, handicapped Yugoslavia.

1 He terms it otherwise.

2 Q. Mr. Mesic, from what you have just said, do you in fact confirm

3 the fact that the Serbs in Croatia had lost under your authority

4 the properties and characteristics of a constituent peoples, that is to

5 say, a peoples realising their right to self-determination? Is that what

6 you're bearing out, what you're confirming, the right that they always

7 enjoyed under all the constitutions except the 1990 constitution? Is that

8 what you're confirming by what you're saying now?

9 A. The Serbs realised their constitutional right to

10 self-determination and formed a republic, the Republic of Serbia. I don't

11 know why -- I don't know --

12 Q. We're not talking about the Serbs in Serbia, Mr. Mesic. We're

13 talking about the Serbs in Croatia. It was the Serbs in Croatia who

14 had the status, enjoyed the status of a constituent people in Croatia, and

15 that was not --

16 JUDGE MAY: This is degenerating into an argument. It doesn't

17 seem it's taking us anywhere. These may be matters which, in the end,

18 we'll have to resolve, but it seems pointless going on about it with this

19 witness. He's made his position clear. You've cross-examined him

20 thoroughly. Now, let's move on to any other topic that you want to

21 examine about.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. All right. Let me just ask this: Is it clear to you that when

24 you speak about Vojvodina and Kosovo, that you are in fact speaking about

25 autonomous provinces within Serbia proper, so that therefore you cannot

Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and English transcripts.

1 transfer this to Slovenia and Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina and

2 Macedonia, that same model, because the internal constitutional changes in

3 Serbia were a matter for Serbia to decide, not a matter for Croatia to

4 decide, not a matter for Croatia to decide? Vojvodina is not in Croatia.

5 It is in Serbia. So do you deprive Serbia the right of settling matters

6 in its own house?

7 A. I see that the accused is suffering from amnesia once again,

8 because it was the provinces which were a constitutive element of the

9 Federation as well, both of Serbia but also a constituent element of the

10 Federation as well, and that is the portion he deprived them of.

11 Q. I quite obviously don't have time to engage in this kind of

12 discussion and debate, but I think that constitutional experts are the

13 ones who are well capable of dealing with these matters, and your

14 distorted concepts of the right of nations to self-determination seems to

15 me to be --

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is all argument and comment. Now,

17 let's move on.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. The Territorial Defence in the republics, that it was under the

20 command of the Presidency and the Supreme Command and partly controlled by

21 the republics, where the Territorial Defence of Serbia is concerned, you

22 said, quite incorrectly, that the Territorial Defence units of Serbia

23 waged war in Croatia because the TO of Serbia and Montenegro was

24 exclusively under the command of the army. You say that on page 19 of

25 your statement. How can you say something like that?

1 A. The Territorial Defence attacked Dubrovnik, together with the

2 rebels from Bosnia and Herzegovina. And with respect to the attack on

3 Croatia, it was the army that was under the command of the General Staff,

4 and together with the Territorial Defence, they attacked Croatian towns

5 and villages. Units of the army arrived from Serbia, and in Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina and Serbia they joined in the attacks and ethnic cleansing.

7 This would have been impossible. It was not possible that no one in

8 Croatia saw that tanks were going from Serbia to Vukovar and other parts

9 of Croatia. This is something that cannot be concealed. Somebody had to

10 see that the army was coming from Serbia to Croatia during the war.

11 Q. Mr. Mesic, are you aware of the fact that the JNA was all over the

12 territory of the former Yugoslavia and that therefore Croatia was not a

13 demilitarised republic within the SFRY? When I drew up my demonic plan,

14 as you say, the army then attacked Croatia. No. That was not the case.

15 The army was already in Croatia, just as it was in Serbia and everywhere

16 else in Yugoslavia. Is this clear to you? Is it clear to you that this

17 was all happening when the army was being attacked, when there were

18 clashes with the army, when you were making decisions to drive out the

19 Yugoslav army, not the Serbian army, but the Yugoslav army?

20 JUDGE MAY: No. I'm going to bring this to a close.

21 Mr. Mesic, it's put to you, first of all, that the Yugoslav army

22 was already in Croatia, so there was no question of it being brought in,

23 and secondly, that that army was under attack. Would you deal with those

24 two separate points, please.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do that gladly. From the

1 barracks of the JNA, which had by then become a Serbian army because the

2 other nationalities had left it by then, it was this army that was arming

3 the rebels, which is why they were under a blockade, why they were

4 surrounded, so that they could no longer arm those who were attacking and

5 trying to topple the institutions of the Croatian state. Novi Sad is not

6 in Croatia, but it was a Novi Sad corps that attacked Vukovar. Belgrade

7 is certainly not in Croatia, but it was from Belgrade that guards units

8 came to attack Vukovar. Somebody had to have seen this, at least those

9 who, in that aggressive war, promoted those who participated in all this

10 and decorated them. The accused knows very well who these people were.

11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Mesic, as you know very well, military districts did not

13 coincide with the borders of the republics in the Federal Republic of

14 Yugoslavia. They are still -- they still do not coincide with these

15 borders in Yugoslavia. For example, in the 2nd -- the 2nd Military

16 District covers a part of western Serbia and yet it's based in Podgorica.

17 So there was a single JNA, a unitary JNA, and you made the decision - and

18 I will tell you exactly when you did that - that it should be driven out

19 of Croatia, that the barracks should be cut off, that electricity and

20 water should be cut for the barracks, that soldiers should be attacked,

21 that they should be beaten up, arrested, and so on and so forth. Are you

22 aware of this or not, Mr. Mesic?

23 A. The accused knows full well that this is not true, that it's a

24 fabrication. I made no such decisions, nor was I in a position to make

25 them. However, the accused knows very well that the JNA was not allowed

1 to attack Croatian towns, and I would like to know when and where he

2 lodged a protest against this, against Serbian tanks, JNA tanks going to

3 destroy towns in Croatia.

4 Q. Mr. Mesic, when Dubrovnik was being shelled, I was attending a

5 conference with Lord Carrington, together with your president, and then I

6 said that any clash was crazy, that Dubrovnik was a Croatian town. This

7 has nothing to do with what you're saying. But let us go back to your

8 story about the Serbicised army, as you say, because the influence of the

9 Serbian bloc is quite senseless. It doesn't make sense when we are

10 speaking of the JNA. General Kadijevic was half Croat, half Serbian.

11 Adzic was from Herzegovina. Brovet was a Slovenian.

12 JUDGE MAY: You're not giving evidence. You're not giving

13 evidence.

14 It's being put, Mr. Mesic, that you're wrong when you say that

15 the JNA was becoming Serb. In particular, two generals are referred to.

16 Would you like to deal with that.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not count anybody's blood

18 cells or look at their chromosomes. Individuals did remain because they

19 were afraid for their survival, but that doesn't mean anything. Most of

20 the Croats had left the JNA. All the Slovenians, except for Brovet, and

21 perhaps one or two individuals had left. The Albanians had left the

22 army. The Bosnians had left the army. I'm merely putting forward facts.

23 But exceptions only go to prove the rule.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that in 1999 or in the year 2000, even then

1 the army of Yugoslavia was not ethnically pure, not only when we look at

2 the composition of soldiers, but when we look at the composition of the

3 generals, and this was ten years later. So why are you falsifying facts?

4 Why are you manipulating facts in this way? You know that the JNA then

5 had members in proportion to the ethnic -- general ethnic make-up, as far

6 as soldiers go and also as far as generals go. There were even more from

7 other republics than there were from Serbia. This was a Yugoslav army.

8 You yourself said it was an integrating factor. So it doesn't make sense

9 when you say that it was Serbia who took the JNA under its command.

10 JUDGE MAY: Another speech. Another speech.

11 It's said that you're wrong about the ethnic make-up, Mr. Mesic.

12 It says you're wrong about it in 1999 and 2000, but we're not dealing with

13 those years. But dealing with the years which we are talking about, which

14 would be 1991, can you give any evidence about the ethnic make-up, or are

15 you relying on the behaviour of the army, your evidence about it becoming

16 more Serb?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of the Croats in the JNA left

18 it when it became evident that the JNA was waging an aggressive war

19 against the Republic of Croatia. Most of the Slovenians in the JNA left

20 it when it became completely evident that the army was waging an

21 aggressive war against Slovenia. The same happened in the case of other

22 republics. Whether a few individuals remained is of less importance.

23 Some individuals did remain. I assert that too. But the army was

24 implementing a policy that General Kadijevic admits was aimed at setting

25 up a Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag boundary. This is what General

1 Kadijevic himself said, regardless of who his father and mother were. I'm

2 not interested in that. But he was in the service of the greater Serbian

3 policy and the aggression against the Republic of Croatia.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Very well. I assume that General Kadijevic can testify about that

6 and not you, Mr. Mesic. In its public announcement of the 1st of October,

7 its communique, did your Presidency express concern because the federal

8 organs and the assembly were no longer functioning, the Presidency was

9 undergoing a crisis, and the president wanted to have extended sessions to

10 be attended by representatives of the republic and federal governments and

11 so on? Do you remember this? This is on page 8, paragraph 2 of your

12 statement.

13 A. I'm not sure I was in Belgrade at the time, but it's quite clear

14 that the federal institutions were not in fact functioning.

15 Q. Is it true that at the session of the 3rd of October, the

16 Presidency stated that Yugoslavia was facing an imminent threat of war and

17 that this was not a session of a Rump Presidency but a session attended by

18 six members of the Presidency? Is it not true that this was functioning

19 in danger of imminent threat of war and that --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Would Mr. Milosevic please slow down.

21 A. No, this is not correct. Yugoslavia was not facing an imminent

22 threat of war. Yugoslavia was threatened by Serbian aggression against

23 parts of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Mesic, apart from these political qualifications which are

1 quite inadequate, you have no arguments to put forward. You are speaking

2 of a war against Yugoslavia, an illegal and unconstitutional secession,

3 it's expulsion of units of the Yugoslav army from the territory of

4 Croatia. Please, your fabrication about what General Kadijevic said --

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we're not here to listen to more

6 speeches. We're almost finished today. It may be of assistance to know

7 how long do you think you might require in re-examination, Mr. Nice?

8 MR. NICE: It could be 20 minutes I thought would have been more

9 than possible.

10 JUDGE MAY: There will be that available. We'll have to decide

11 how the time goes is to be divided.

12 MR. NICE: There are important issues raised with this witness and

13 it's only right that a proper record should be left in the evidence about

14 what the true position is.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mesic, would you be available for longer than

17 one hour tomorrow morning? Is that possible?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to be in Zagreb by 12.00

19 noon. I need at least an hour to get there, or an hour and a half, to get

20 to Zagreb. Maybe an hour and a half. I could be here for an hour and a

21 half, from 9.00 to 10.30.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that would be helpful. Yes.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll give the accused another half hour

25 had, Mr. Tapuskovic half an hour, Prosecution 20 minutes.

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* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-12.htm