1 You've got another five minutes. Do you want to ask some more

2 questions, Mr. Milosevic, this afternoon, or are you finished for the day?

3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mesic: Were your claim correct, what sort of

5 obligation would the army have to obey me had I ordered the army, the then

6 JNA, to do something? Why would they have had to obey me? How could I

7 have issued them with orders?

8 A. Formally they were under no obligation. That's precisely the

9 point. You issued orders to that army, and when I asked General Kadijevic

10 why he was obeying only you, he said: Everybody else in Serbia is even

11 worse. You should discuss this with General Kadijevic.

12 Q. As far as I know, you asked him why he was communicating with me

13 at all, not why he was obeying me. Because, as you know, that is untrue.

14 A. General Kadijevic, as the Secretary of National Defence, never,

15 throughout my term of office in Belgrade, came to see me. Just recall how

16 many times you talked to him.

17 Q. Less than you, I assume as his supreme commander.

18 A. You're making me laugh again. This is no place for us to laugh.

19 Q. On page 17 of your statement, you say that the Rump Presidency

20 implemented a putsch, a coup d'etat. Was this a Rump Presidency because

21 you obstructed its functioning and those who followed you in your

22 obstruction, or was it a Rump Presidency because those who continued to

23 attend the sessions were continuing to fulfil their obligations? Was it a

24 Rump Presidency because you left it or because they remained at their

25 posts performing their duty? Is there any logic in this, Mr. Mesic?

1 A. The Rump Presidency could not be established by any legal and

2 legitimate means, by any extensive interpretations of the constitution.

3 This was an illegal group of people which introduced a state of emergency,

4 at the suggestion of Slobodan Milosevic, because he was the only one who

5 had any influence over those people and over that Rump Presidency. And

6 let me give you a piece of information. My advisor remained in Belgrade.

7 The room, the premises where the Presidency and later the Rump Presidency

8 had its sessions had a connecting door leading to my former cabinet. My

9 advisor listened to what they were talking about. He came to Croatia by

10 way of Hungary and reported to me, so that I knew what the Rump Presidency

11 was discussing. Slobodan Milosevic asked that Vukovar be left alone and

12 that the army go to Zagreb. And General Kadijevic said that this was

13 impossible because the Croats had gained in military strength to such an

14 extent that they would attack his flanks and he would not be able to reach

15 Zagreb. So the opinion prevailed in the end that Vukovar had to be

16 destroyed. This is my interpretation now, but it was the accused who

17 asked that Zagreb be attacked. The witness to this is my advisor who told

18 me this.

19 JUDGE MAY: Let's follow this. When were you told that there had

20 been this discussion about Vukovar, Mr. Mesic? What sort of date are we

21 dealing with?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the time when I was not

23 going to Belgrade, when there were frequent army attacks from Novi Sad and

24 Belgrade against Vukovar, and my advisor was still in Belgrade. He was in

25 Belgrade until Vukovar fell. And he used to come to see me by way of

1 Hungary, via Hungary.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that the presidents of the republics at the

4 session of the Presidency, that they arrived only rarely and by

5 invitation, and that except on those rare occasions when all the other

6 presidents of the republics were present, I never took part in any

7 sessions of the Presidency? How can you put forward such fabrications,

8 such falsehoods? You should know that. And you say this was put to you

9 by your advisor --

10 JUDGE MAY: It's suggested, Mr. Mesic, that this is not true.

11 Perhaps you could answer that and then we'll adjourn.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First I have to say that the accused

13 is now speculating. These are not sessions of the Presidency of the SFRY,

14 because I know very well how any session chaired by me was convocated [As

15 interpreted]. I'm speaking about sessions of the Rump Presidency. Who

16 they invited and how, I don't know. I only know what my advisor told me.

17 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's 2.00. Tomorrow

18 morning -- you can go on tomorrow morning about this.

19 JUDGE KWON: Before we adjourn and before too late, I'd like to

20 suggest the registrar to exhibit Mr. Mesic's transcript the in Dokmanovic,

21 which we didn't.

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I believe it was marked Exhibit 329.

23 JUDGE KWON: Those are exhibits.

24 THE REGISTRAR: I will look into that.

25 MR. NICE: I think the position is that part of the transcript was

1 marked on its side as exhibited pursuant to the 92 bis package and the

2 other part wasn't. So there might be grounds for simply taking the whole

3 Dokmanovic transcript and exhibiting it as His Honour Judge Kwon proposes.

4 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. First of all, we'll deal with the

5 exhibit number. Yes.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution's Exhibit 331.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked that the other transcript,

8 which contains a more extensive testimony by Mr. Mesic, also be tendered

9 into evidence. I will not say what the case is, because he was a

10 protected witness in that case.

11 JUDGE MAY: We haven't seen that. Is there any objection to that

12 being done?

13 MR. NICE: Can I think about that over night. One of my problems

14 is is that in two cases the page references of the accused don't match the

15 transcript I have and I haven't been able to find the references he made.

16 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that overnight. Meanwhile, I would

17 remind everybody that we are sitting tomorrow from 9.00 in the morning

18 until half past 4.00, 4.00 to half past tomorrow, 4.00 or half past

19 tomorrow.

20 Mr. Mesic, would you be back, please, for the first session

21 tomorrow. Thank you. 9.00 tomorrow.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.04 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of

24 October 2002, at 9.00 a.m.

25