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Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART XIII
Because the transcript of the cross-examination is very pages long we have
broken it into 2 easy to read segments.
================================= 

1 Thursday, 3 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: The programme for today will be as follows: That the

7 witness will be examined until 10.20 in the way which we've already

8 ordered. We'll then break until 10.50. At 10.50 we will deal with

9 Mr. Wladimiroff's matter. We will then have the earlier witness back for

10 examination today and tomorrow. The first session will be until 12.20,

11 the luncheon adjournment will be until 1.50. We will sit again 1.50 to

12 3.20. We'll take a 10-minute break; we'll sit again 3.30 to 4.30.

13 Tomorrow morning we will sit for four hours between 9.00 and 1.00,

14 with breaks as appropriate. We will finish tomorrow at 1.00, by which

15 time we will have finished the examination of the earlier witness.

16 Now, as we said, there is cross-examination of this witness for a

17 further hour, Mr. Milosevic. Yes.

18 WITNESS: STJEPAN MESIC [Resumed]

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic: [Continued]

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mesic, for the past two days, you have spoken

22 a lot about Greater Serbia. Do you know that Greater Serbia is a creation

23 of the Austro-Hungarian empire from the century before the last and that

24 it was used exclusively as a means of anti-Serb propaganda and that there

25 was never a programme, that no Serbian government ever had this kind of

1 programme from the moment Serbia came into existence until today? Are you

2 aware of that?

3 A. I know a lot of things about history, but we are here for another

4 reason. If Greater Serbia was not in issue, why, then, did the Guards

5 Division, commanded by the Supreme Command, directly subordinated to

6 Blagoje Adzic, attack Vukovar? Why did the 252nd Armoured Brigade from

7 Kraljevo, from Kraljevo, mind you, go against Vukovar? Why did the 220th

8 Armoured Brigade from Nis attack Vukovar? Why did the 2nd and 3rd Guards

9 Brigades attack Vukovar? They were commanded by Sljivancanin, Mrksic, and

10 Radic, as is well known. Why did the White Eagles come, Dusan Silni

11 commanded by Raznjatovic, Arkan?

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mesic, I'm going to interrupt you. Do I take it

13 from that answer that this is a conclusion which you draw from the events

14 which occurred?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were implementing the plan for

16 the creation of a Greater Serbia. These were units of the Ministry of the

17 Interior, special purpose units of the Ministry of the Interior of Serbia,

18 and the Territorial Defence of Serbia, all under the command, ultimately,

19 of Slobodan Milosevic, accused here. The plan for the creation of a

20 Greater Serbia started from Vukovar. I don't want to enter into

21 Austro-Hungarian propaganda.

22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Mesic, as you know, I was the President of Serbia. Yesterday,

24 Mr. May asked me about Vukovar, and I told him I didn't know about that.

25 I was the President of Serbia. And you, Mr. Mesic, is it not correct,

1 attacked, according to your own decision, the JNA, wherever it was

2 stationed. You are responsible for the conflicts with the JNA, which was

3 on the territory of Yugoslavia. You caused all the destruction and

4 killing. Is that correct or not, Mr. Mesic?

5 A. The accused is putting forward conclusions that not even David

6 Copperfield would be ashamed of. Croatia was defending itself from the

7 JNA because the JNA was arming those who were attacking Croatia, the

8 Croatian state and the Croatian government. Croatia was defending itself

9 because the JNA, under the control of the accused, was attacking Croatian

10 territory. No one attacked barracks. They were simply blocked,

11 surrounded, to prevent them attacking.

12 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Mr. Milosevic, I think the reference

13 to David Copperfield was probably to Micawber, although I don't know if

14 that's right or not. But in any event, can we deal with something more

15 concrete? We are dealing in generalities and it's really of no assistance

16 to the Trial Chamber to have these very general discussions.

17 Perhaps you can help us. Since the plan for the Greater Serbia

18 was mentioned, Mr. Mesic, did you hear the accused or anybody in the

19 leadership of the JNA or the Republic of Serbia talking about such a plan?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct. Or rather, it is

21 correct that there was no discussion of the creation of a Greater Serbia.

22 As far as I know, there is no such conclusion, formal conclusion, but the

23 job of creating a Greater Serbia was being done in Serbia and in Bosnia

24 and Herzegovina. So work on it was being conducted. And I draw this

25 conclusion on the basis of the actions of the JNA, the Territorial

1 Defence, and the illegal, or rather, legal in Serbia, paramilitary

2 organisations which were mobilised in centres in Serbia, which were

3 trained in centres in Serbia, and after the fall of Vukovar, men, women,

4 and children, all those who were not killed in Ovcara, were taken to camps

5 in Serbia, which stretched all the way to Nis.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Since this is evidently untrue, to avoid your explaining again

8 about Greater Serbia, which as you yourself say nobody ever discussed,

9 yesterday you said that you were well aware of the time, so the Serbs

10 reacted in August 1990. You spoke of the log revolution. And you claim

11 that conflicts broke out because there was a plan to create a Greater

12 Serbia, which as you yourself have just said nobody ever mentioned, and

13 that it was the plan to create a Greater Serbia which broke up Yugoslavia.

14 Now tell me: You were the first Prime Minister of Croatia after

15 the HDZ won the elections, and this government introduced a reign of

16 terror over the Serbian population. They did this before August 1990.

17 A. There was no reign of terror in Croatia. As I said, there were

18 unacceptable messages, that is correct.

19 Q. What sort of messages are you talking about? Let me just remind

20 you: This wave of anti-Serbian nationalism which was reminiscent of 1945

21 and 1971, let me tell you, on the 12th of March, the presidency of Croatia

22 sent a letter where Milan Seselj resigned because of the benevolent view

23 of the Ustasha taken by the government because the government was allowing

24 the Serbian people to be mistreated, their language thrown out of the

25 constitution, and taking every opportunity to mistreat the Serbs in

1 Croatia. This was in March 1990. You said the Serbs rebelled and put up

2 logs to prevent your police from slaughtering them in August, but the

3 Ustasha killed Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies in Jasenica, as you well know.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we're going to deal with concrete

5 matters and we're going to deal with questions and not speeches. Now,

6 would you move on to some other topic. I think we have exhausted this

7 topic. We've been through it several times yesterday, and now we're going

8 through it again today. Now, remember, your time is limited.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are wasting my time and

10 Mr. Mesic is wasting my time. I'm using my time very rationally.

11 JUDGE MAY: If you don't have sensible questions, it will be

12 brought to an end.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this a sensible question,

14 Mr. May, for him to tell me why the survivors of Jasenovac, of the

15 Jasenovac camp, wrote a message saying, "We have escaped one hell, we

16 don't want our children and grandchildren to experience another. We are

17 embittered by the knowledge that the independent state of Croatia was the

18 will of the Croatian people."

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Mesic --

21 JUDGE MAY: The witness cannot answer the question as to why that

22 letter was written. You will have to call evidence about it if you wish.

23 Now, what is your next question?

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. My question is: In your programme, the programme of the Croatian

Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and English transcripts.

1 Democratic Union, did you include all this? I'm speaking of the

2 historical opportunity for the Croatian people to create their own state.

3 And did you embark upon a pogrom of the Serbs on the 17th of June, 1989?

4 This is the programme of that HDZ of yours which was established on the

5 17th of June, 1989, with these goals. So did the Serbs rebel before that

6 for you to do that, or was it afterwards? How can something that happened

7 later cause something that happened before?

8 JUDGE MAY: Several questions in one. The first allegation is

9 that you embarked upon a pogrom. I think, Mr. Mesic, these are matters

10 which you've dealt with before, but since it's put in that way, you should

11 have the opportunity to deal with it.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have already answered this

13 question, but I can do so again. The Croatian people had the right to

14 independence, just as the people of Finland have, just as the Serbs have.

15 They have the right to independence and they made use of that right.

16 Because Yugoslavia had no integrating factors any longer, Croatia wanted,

17 in the period leading up to dissociation, to have this happen in a

18 peaceful way, which is why it offered a confederal model. I have already

19 stated this.

20 I also said that Croatia was based on the anti-fascist Croatia

21 created in World War II. The Croatia of today is based on the

22 anti-fascist Croatia. The independent state of Croatia was neither

23 Croatian, nor was it independent. It was a creation of quislings. It

24 perpetrated crimes and it had to answer for those crimes. To link the

25 independent state of Croatia as it was then with the Croatia of today can

1 only be in the interest of somebody's propaganda. But the Croatia of

2 today, a democratic country ruled by law, has nothing to do with that

3 independent state of Croatia. I said, and I say again, that there were

4 erroneous messages, messages that were wrong, but this had to be resolved

5 through the institutions of the Croatian state and not to have the Serbs,

6 who are elected to the Croatian parliament, walk out of that parliament

7 when there were issues to be identified and resolved. What was it they

8 wanted? They wanted precisely what happened and precisely what Milosevic

9 is accused of today. But it was not they themselves who wanted the

10 rebellion, it was others who led them into rebellion, and the accused

11 knows very well that the aim was to set up the Virovitica-

12 Karlovac-Karlobag boundary.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. You said that a thousand times.

15 A. It's always the same.

16 Q. You hold it against Croatian MPs. I'm not entering into your

17 internal affairs in the parliament, but you hold it against them that they

18 walked out of the parliament to avoid resolving issues, and this,

19 according to you, was the place where they should have been solved, and

20 yet you do not hold it against yourself that you walked out of the

21 Presidency of Yugoslavia, the highest organ of Yugoslavia, where problems

22 had to be resolved. You purposely brought the Presidency into a situation

23 in which it became a rump Presidency by walking out of it and leading

24 others to do the same. All your stories about Greater Serbia were merely

25 a pretext for you to carry out your plan, to decapitate --

1 MR. NICE: I'm sorry to interrupt, but can the witness perhaps

2 answer that question, if there is a single question locked in there.

3 JUDGE MAY: Was there a question? What was it?

4 MR. NICE: The suggestion is that he walked out of the Presidency

5 of Yugoslavia. I'd like to have an answer to that.

6 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think he's answered it several times, but of

7 course he can.

8 The suggestion is that you accused the Serbs of walking out of the

9 parliament but you walked out of the Presidency, and I suppose what's the

10 difference? That's the point which was made.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will gladly answer, and I'm glad

12 that the question was put. Croatia proclaimed its independence in

13 agreement with the international community. Croatia postponed the

14 implementation of its decision, hoping that a political solution would be

15 reached within three months' time, namely, a political model as to how we

16 would move from that federation which no longer functioned into something

17 that was different. We said that we wanted a confederal model. If it did

18 not function, then everybody would take their own path. But as an

19 independent state without wars.

20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Mesic, we've already heard that.

22 A. Yes, we have already heard it. That's why I'm repeating it. And

23 once these three months elapsed, when there was no more Presidency, when

24 Croatia was independent, I had nothing to do with the Presidency. I had

25 no business there. I did not come to the Presidency of Yugoslavia of my

1 own free will. I came on the basis of a decision reached by the Croatian

2 parliament, and if there was no more Presidency, my only task was to

3 return to the parliament and say that I had no more business in Belgrade,

4 and that's exactly what happened. I don't see how I was the one who

5 toppled Yugoslavia.

6 Q. Of course you're the one who did. Mr. Mesic, is it being denied

7 that mass dismissals from Serbs who were employed in the police, state

8 administration, and even the health sector, was --

9 JUDGE MAY: The witness can't answer questions on that. You asked

10 them yesterday and he dealt with it. You must ask something new today if

11 you want to continue.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am asking him something new.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Because the point is that it's not possible if you put the time

15 sequence together, then you will see that the reaction of the Serbs in

16 Croatia was reaction to a pogrom that was started against them.

17 JUDGE MAY: You've dealt with them. Now, look, Mr. Milosevic:

18 You can ask questions about what the witness has said, but you can't go

19 over and over again the same material. It's pointless. Now, you've got

20 10 minutes left.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you remember the statement made by Lord Carrington,

23 who said: We were about to reach a solution. You are talking about it

24 now, a political solution. We were about to resolve the problem of

25 Slavonia and Krajina when Germany recognised Croatia within its borders

1 and that destroyed the peace process. Croatia had no interest whatsoever

2 in pursuing the political process. They simply carried out what they had

3 intended to carry out. Do you think that he's right when he says that?

4 A. Germany was not the first one to recognise Croatia. It was

5 Iceland that did. Iceland and Germany and all other countries that

6 recognised Croatia and Slovenia. Later, Bosnia and Herzegovina as well.

7 They recognised reality, because Serbia did not accept agreements.

8 Serbia, headed by the accused, wanted to change borders of the republics.

9 That's the whole problem. Because if there were dismissals from work, I

10 repeat once again, is that a reason to destroy Vukovar? Are divisions

11 supposed to be brought in then?

12 Q. I believe that we've cleared that up, that there were conflicts

13 with the JNA, not with Serbia, and conflicts with the JNA and the

14 territory of Yugoslavia and the Croatian part of Yugoslav territory were

15 caused by your violence, not the violence perpetrated by the JNA.

16 But my question is: Did the Serbs accept Vance's plan and the

17 UN-protected areas, north, south, east, west? Is that correct or is that

18 not correct, Mr. Mesic? Is that not what happened at the end of 1991 and

19 the beginning of 1992? Is that correct, Mr. Mesic?

20 A. Correct. The Vance-Owen Plan.

21 Q. It's not the Vance-Owen Plan. It's the Vance plan.

22 A. All right. It was the Vance plan and then the Vance-Owen plan,

23 and the UNPAs, and Croatia abided by that. They were protected.

24 Q. Oh, you're saying that you protected the UNPAs and you carried out

25 all these attacks against the UN-protected areas, all of them. Look at

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