1 A. The accused knows very well, because he's a lawyer, that I was

2 president of the Croatian Sabor or parliament assembly, which means primus

3 inter pares, and I was president of parliament. I was not in the

4 judiciary organs or in executive power and authority, nor was I in the

5 police force. And the accused knows full well what the function of a

6 parliament is.

7 Q. As far as I remember, you were president of the executive board of

8 the HDZ party as well.

9 A. Yes. I was the president of the executive board of the HDZ.

10 That's true, in 1992, which means from January to the elections, that is

11 to say, until October 1992.

12 Q. Before that, you were prime minister when the HDZ won the

13 elections; isn't that right, Mr. Mesic, when it came into power?

14 A. Yes, you're quite right. You have the right facts and figures. I

15 was prime minister for three months. That is true. And after that I took

16 up my post as member of the Yugoslav state Presidency. And that's where I

17 remained until the end of 1991.

18 Q. All right. What you're saying is that after you returned from the

19 Yugoslav state Presidency, when you were elected as president of the

20 Croatian parliament, that that was not the second most important office in

21 Croatia and that you link your activities up with the formal decisions

22 taken by -- official decisions taken by parliament and not for the overall

23 political situation in Croatia, the state of affairs that prevailed and

24 everything that went on there. You were the number two man in Croatia;

25 isn't that right, Mr. Mesic?

1 A. I always strove for the functioning of the rule of law of the

2 Croatian state and the Croatian constitution recognises the division of

3 power into three sections: The legal section and the two others, the

4 judiciary and everything else that the constitution implied and

5 stipulated, which means that I was president of parliament.

6 Q. All right. You therefore consider that you worked in line with

7 the constitution and that you did the work that comes under the

8 competencies of the parliament. Does the parliament have the right to

9 send Croatian troops, for example, to Bosnia-Herzegovina or is that

10 something that comes under the competence of executive power?

11 A. It's a very good thing that this question was raised, and I think

12 we ought to clear it up now. For the Croatian army to be able to act

13 outside Croatia, the head of state could take a decision only with the

14 acquiescence and agreement from the Croatian parliament. This kind of

15 agreement was never issued by the Croatian parliament, whether anybody

16 went outside Croatia, groups or individuals, it was not up to the

17 parliament to ascertain.

18 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. What you're saying is that you don't

19 consider yourself to be responsible for not having carried out your

20 constitutional duties, the ones that you insisted upon a moment ago,

21 because parliament did not take decisions in that respect, the decisions

22 that it should have taken. So you feel, do you, that this rids you of all

23 responsibility?

24 A. Yes, that's quite right.

25 Q. And are you aware of the fact that, for example, units of the

1 Republic of Croatia launched an attack on the municipality of Brod in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 26th of March, 1992, a great crime was committed

3 there, the population of the village of Sijekovac in the Bosanski Brod

4 municipality was massacred and even at that time Bosnia-Herzegovina was

5 not even internationally recognised, which means that in all respects it

6 was part and parcel of Yugoslavia, even in the most -- in the strictest

7 formal sense. And their 108 -- the members of the 108th Brigade of the

8 National Guard Corps were there from Slavonski Brod and so on and so

9 forth. There is a complete set of documents pertaining to the

10 perpetrators. Is it possible that you, as president of parliament, did

11 not know about that?

12 A. There were several interventions that I had from several families

13 of -- and the parents said that they had gone to Bosnia. I asked for

14 information, both from the head of state and the defence minister, and

15 they told me that it was only volunteers who had gone and that it was the

16 volunteers who were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina who volunteered to go. I

17 had no other instruments at my disposal. The only thing I could do was to

18 ask to be informed. But I must say that if anybody does have knowledge as

19 to the fact that a citizen of Croatia perpetrated a crime anywhere, then

20 this should be filed. Croatia is a country in which the rule of law holds

21 true today, and everybody will be held accountable.

22 Q. Well, you've received many such reports, Mr. Mesic, but are you

23 saying now that you did not know, as president of parliament, a body who

24 was the sole body competent to take a decision in the matter, that you did

25 not know that what came within the frameworks of your competence was done

1 illegally and that you did not in fact know that Croatian troops were

2 present in Bosnia-Herzegovina? Is that what you're saying?

3 A. That observation is quite correct. I did not know about that.

4 Q. All right. Did you know, for example, that from the 3rd of April

5 until the 9th of April an attack was launched on Kupres, the Gornji

6 Malovan, Kratez, Mala Plazenica, Zagliska Suma [phoen], the town of

7 Kupres, Begovo Selo, all these other villages, and so on and so forth?

8 JUDGE MAY: Is looks as though this is going to be a reputation of

9 much of the cross-examination which we heard in the earlier part of the

10 case, which doesn't relate to the evidence of the witness. What he said

11 is that he heard of interventions, made inquiries and was told that it was

12 due to volunteers. Perhaps, Mr. Mesic, in order to avoid a long list

13 being given, if that's what the accused has in mind, can you answer this

14 question: Can you tell us where these interventions which you inquired

15 about took place, or can you not now remember?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I certainly do not know the

17 locations they were sent to, but the parents of the young men told us that

18 their children had gone to Bosnia. When I asked about this, the defence

19 minister and the former president of the Republic told me that not a

20 single unit had gone, that it was only volunteers who had gone, and that

21 is the volunteers who were actually born in Bosnia-Herzegovina. Now, I

22 had no other instruments for investigating the truthfulness of those

23 assertions.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Mesic, it wasn't a case of individuals, for example, if we had

1 the 106th Brigade from Osijek, the full complement of it, and the Zuti

2 Mravi from Vukovar, the 101 Zagreb Brigade, the Student King Tomislav

3 Battalion, the Zrinjski Battalion, the special purpose unit of the MUP of

4 Croatia and so on and so forth. In addition to the KOS, the Zenga, and so

5 on?

6 JUDGE MAY: Pause there, Mr. Milosevic. The witness can only give

7 evidence about what he knew himself. Now, what is being suggested, that

8 these units intervened in your inquiries, were those units mentioned? Do

9 you know anything about them or not?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that the accused knows the

11 situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina very well and that he is well aware of all

12 the units that went to war there, and I'm sure he could enumerate all the

13 Serbs units. If he knows about the Croatian units, I'm sure he knows much

14 more about those who came from Belgrade and other towns and destroyed

15 Croatian and Bosnian towns. However, let me respond once again and say

16 that I did not know of a single unit which went from Croatia to

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. Is it true that your nephew, who was not a

20 volunteer and who is not from Bosnia-Herzegovina, also went to

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina with his unit? Do you know about that? Are you aware

22 of that?

23 A. My nephews were not in the army. They were too young to be.

24 Q. All right. We'll get to that later on.

25 But tell me this: How can you, for example, as we spoke a moment

Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and English transcripts.

1 ago about those incidents and what was going on, to all intents and

2 purposes an aggression, and you say you know nothing about it, this is

3 what I have in my hand: The command for the rear of Bosanski Brod

4 Sijekovac. That is where the crimes were perpetrated --

5 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you now. The witness has given his

6 evidence. He knows nothing about it. Your duty, your function at the

7 moment, is to cross-examine him about his evidence. It's not to make

8 speeches or try and present evidence yourself. Now, he's given his

9 evidence about this matter and he can take it no further. In due course,

10 if it's relevant, you can call evidence, but for the moment you must move

11 on to some other topic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I wish to ask the witness

13 respect to what he says he didn't know, how he can --

14 JUDGE MAY: He's told you. He told you he doesn't know. He

15 doesn't know.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] His comment on this military

17 document and this is something that will take me 20 seconds to read out.

18 This is a photocopy with a stamp and signature. It is a permit allowing

19 the intervention platoon from Zagreb, a certificate, in fact, to execute

20 the detention of women --

21 JUDGE MAY: Is it signed by the witness? What connection does it

22 have with him, before you put it.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The connection it has is -- with the

24 witness is -- this is to say, it is linked with his second function in the

25 hierarchy of the Republic of Croatia, and this is a certificate issued to

1 the intervention platoon from Zagreb, which is the capital of Croatia,

2 where the cabinet of Mr. Mesic is located, a permit allowing the detention

3 of women, young girls, Serbs, for the needs of the male sex.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, what is the connection with this

5 witness, before you put it?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the connection is to show

7 that the units that he says he knows nothing about are not only committing

8 crimes but are organising rape and all the rest of it.

9 JUDGE MAY: Look, that's nothing to do with the witness. You're

10 here to cross-examine him about these matters. If it's relevant, you can

11 call evidence in due course, but what you're not here to do is to make

12 speeches and try and present evidence that crimes were committed by the

13 other side which are irrelevant. Now, this trial, remember, this

14 indictment, is about crimes which are alleged -- it's alleged that you

15 committed, and his evidence is about that, so you should concentrate on

16 that rather than to try and show that crimes were committed by others.

17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may I just raise a few matters, because

18 it's plainly important to the accused. Perhaps what is at stake here is

19 the credibility of this particular witness for the Prosecution. In

20 respect of this, the accused is attempting, I believe, to put forward to

21 the Court various events that occurred during his Presidency of Croatia,

22 to demonstrate his involvement within the conflict that occurred in the

23 region. Those issues may well be important to this accused in relation to

24 issues of defence of territory, other aspects of the conflict. I don't

25 have instructions on that matter, so I can't say, but it may well be that

1 it's the form of questioning that's the problem here. But it's the issue

2 of what was happening at the time whilst he was president of Croatia and

3 whilst troops were leaving the borders of his state.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay, much time has been wasted in this trial in

5 trying to establish that crimes were committed by others, which may or may

6 not be relevant to the trial. That is why it's important to see whether

7 documents were signed by this witness. If the issue is that it was

8 notorious, if that's the point that is being made, that crimes were being

9 put, were being made, were being committed, then that can be put to the

10 witness. What can't be put, which is what I suspect the accused is doing,

11 is to read out lists and lists of crimes, taking up time, and thereby, in

12 my view, raising matters which at this stage are not relevant to the

13 trial. Our time is limited. We must stick to the relevant matters. But

14 I will put to the witness the general point, and we'll hear what he says.

15 Mr. Mesic, what may be being suggested is this, and you can help

16 us, if you would: That it was well known that crimes were being committed

17 in Bosnia during the time of your Presidency. I think this is what is

18 being suggested. And therefore you must have known about these matters,

19 apart from them being referred to by the parents of the volunteers or

20 members of the armed forces, as you suggested. Now, if that is being

21 suggested, then you should answer it. Was this a matter which in fact was

22 something of general knowledge in Croatia, and in particular, to you as

23 president at the time?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was the president of the

25 parliament, I knew about the camps organised by the Serbian side in Bosnia

1 and Herzegovina. I received information, and this was actually shown on

2 television ultimately. If there were other crimes, news of them did not

3 reach me.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Until when were you president of parliament, Mr. Mesic? Until

6 what date?

7 A. I was president of parliament from the 7th of September, 1992

8 until the 24th of May, 1994.

9 Q. 1994. Very well. In that period of time, I ask you, within that

10 period of time, what you said you don't know, and you said you inquired of

11 the minister about -- let me tell you: On the 3rd of July, 1993, Alois

12 Mok criticised the Croats because of their activities against the Muslims,

13 and he issued a protest which he addressed to the government of Croatia.

14 On the 4th of February, also while you were president of parliament, the

15 Security Council of the United Nations -- let me repeat- the Security

16 Council of the United Nations, neither more nor less, issued a statement

17 warning Croatia that it would be exposed to serious consequences if it did

18 not withdraw its regular troops from Bosnia within a period of two months.

19 So this is issued by the Security Council. It was a presidential

20 statement. And yet you, as the president of parliament, say you did not

21 know about this. On the same day, the German chancellor, Helmut Kohl?

22 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with the Security Council point

23 and then you can tell us what is the relevance of this, Mr. Milosevic.

24 Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's really noteworthy that the

1 accused is now expressing remorse for the sufferings of the Bosniak

2 people. This is really something to be commended. However --

3 JUDGE MAY: Could you deal with the Security Council resolution,

4 please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With respect the resolution, I have

6 already said what I was able to do was to ask the president of the state

7 whether our troops had crossed the border. He said no. The Minister of

8 Defence said no. I had no other instruments at my disposal.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Very well. May we proceed?

11 JUDGE MAY: No, we're not going to proceed with this until you've

12 explained what the relevance is. The indictment charges you with crimes

13 in Croatia in the period between 1990 and 1992. What relevance does the

14 conflict between the Muslims and the Croats have in relation to that?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what we are speaking of

16 here is not relevance, but rather, the credibility of this witness.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. You can ask questions about the

18 credibility -- wait a moment. You can ask questions relating to the

19 credibility of the witness, but of course you're bound by his answers and

20 the questions can only go so far as to test their credibility. Now, he's

21 given you an answer about the Security Council resolution. Your next

22 question.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. Then I may

24 proceed to my next question.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-3.htm