1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Was that when Ante Markovic established his own party?

3 A. On the 27th of July, 1990, the Serb assembly passed its so-called

4 decision on Serb autonomy in Croatia. On the 1st of July, 1990 in Kosovo

5 by Knin, an official statement was made that the Serb Autonomous Krajina

6 was established in Croatia, its president being Milan Babic. On the 17th

7 of August, the first roadblocks were on the road in Benkovac, Knin and

8 Gradacac. On the 13th of September, there were meetings and rallies of

9 persons in Dvor and in various other places. In towns and in

10 municipalities in Croatia where there is a predominantly Serb population,

11 there were inscriptions saying: "This is Serbia." So it is persons who

12 came from Serbia who manipulated the Serb masses in Serbia? Why? Because

13 Milosevic needed to bring about an insurgency of the Serbs in Croatia so

14 that he would light the initial fuse for setting Bosnia-Herzegovina on

15 fire, because he needed Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what the accused

16 actually did. That is why he should be held accountable. These radical

17 statements, regrettably, are only in response to statements made by the

18 accused.

19 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you see that you're not testifying about anything

20 here except your political and propaganda activities all this time?

21 Because you do not have a single fact here; you only have your own

22 positions and your attacks against Milosevic.

23 A. This is the trial of the accused Slobodan Milosevic. I have

24 sufficient facts in order to believe that he is guilty because he planned

25 war, he carried out war, and he built into this plan a crime that he

1 should be held accountable for.

2 Q. Very well.

3 JUDGE MAY: Let us get back to the subject-matter of the trial.

4 Yes. You are asking about the statements, Mr. Milosevic.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I put a question. I said: These laws and the atmosphere in

7 parliament, the atmosphere in Croatia, the dismissals of thousands of

8 persons from the administration, from the police, from the media, even

9 from the health sector, is that the kind of atmosphere that caused concern

10 among the Serbs, or was it, as Mr. Mesic just put it now, was it Milosevic

11 who caused concern and who led to this insurgency? Were these facts of

12 life the thing that caused concern among them or did Milosevic come from

13 Serbia to make them start a rebellion, now that I've quoted all of this?

14 A. It wasn't the accused Milosevic who came. His emissaries came,

15 and they were the ones who started the insurgency in Croatia.

16 JUDGE MAY: Can you deal with the allegations which are made,

17 that, first of all, there were the dismissals of thousands of persons from

18 the administration and the police and the media and the health sector?

19 Now, can you deal with that, Mr. Mesic? Were thousands dismissed?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it is an exaggeration

21 to speak of thousands, but that there were dismissals is a fact. There

22 were unnecessary dismissals. People also took those who dismissed them to

23 court and won these cases. I think that these statements that are radical

24 and inadmissible only work to Croatia's detriment, and I always struggled

25 against that.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. All right. So the atmosphere and the statements -- I mean, you

3 say now that it is negative, but the atmosphere was there, wasn't it? So

4 it's not Milosevic who caused an insurgency among the Serbs; it is your

5 laws, your pressures, your behaviour, your attacks against people. Is

6 that right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?

7 A. I have to reply once again, and I've already said this.

8 Q. If you've already said it, please don't read out what you've

9 already read out, please.

10 A. Those who wanted to cut off parts of Croatia, parts of the

11 Republic of Croatia, those are the ones who are to be blamed for the

12 radical statements that were made.

13 Q. Well, look, somebody wanted to cut off parts of your territory.

14 Susanne Woodward from the Brooking Institution, an institution of high

15 renown throughout the world, she says:

16 "Smashed stores fronts, fire bombs thrown and harassed and

17 arrested potential Serb leaders. In many parts of Croatia Serbs were

18 expelled from jobs because of their nationality."

19 JUDGE MAY: You can call her to give evidence if you want. Yes.

20 Was there an atmosphere, Mr. Mesic, to cause the Serbs to have

21 fear at this time or is that not so?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an exaggeration to say that

23 there was an atmosphere of fear, but that there were improper and

24 inadmissible statements, that is a fact. Also there were dismissals that

25 were wrong; however, people took those who dismissed them to court and

1 they won those cases.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You mean those 100,000 Serbs who fled Croatia already in 1990,

4 they won these cases for their own jobs; is that what you're trying to

5 say?

6 A. The accused is a lawyer, and he knows that only a person who is a

7 plaintiff can win a case.

8 Q. Well, we heard your own statements of a few minutes ago about

9 those murders, what kind of rule of law you had. We're going to hear

10 others later as well. I assume that you're not joking now when you're

11 referring to --

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the time has come to move on from this

13 sort of argument, which doesn't assist the Court.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mesic: Do you remember the statement made by the

16 famous artist Edo Murtic in Novi Liste [phoen], a daily from Rijeka, made

17 in June 2000? I'm quoting him: "I remember how a few months prior to the

18 elections in 1990" - he is referring to his conversation with Tudjman -

19 "how he came to me quite delighted, believing that he would turn me into

20 his Augustincic. He thought that we would now do what the Ustashas and

21 Pavelic did not do in 1941. He said that he would send 250.000 Serbs

22 packing away and the remaining 250.000 would be killed." So these are

23 your own newspapers. It's not a Belgrade newspaper. This is Edo Murtic,

24 a famous artist, painter, a well-known intellectual. Do you remember that

25 statement of his about this conversation before the elections in 1990?

1 And I quoted Susan Woodward a few minutes ago and she is referring to the

2 atmosphere before 1990, before the elections.

3 JUDGE MAY: The witness can deal with the conversation by -- or

4 comments by the artist which has been referred to.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The artist Edo Murtic is a friend of

6 mine, by the way, but I do admit that I haven't read that particular

7 statement of his.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. All right. Tell me, please: I'm just going to briefly quote the

10 newspaper Feral Tribune on the 21st of April, 2001, autumn 2001, there was

11 a hunt against the Serbs in 1991. It says: "Mercep's killers were

12 killing Serbs en masse in Pogracka [phoen], Puljane [phoen], they were

13 taking people out of their homes in Zagreb and they were trying them but

14 firing bullets into their heads. Norac Oreskovic and others applied

15 similar methods when dealing with the innocent Serbs of Gospic.

16 Spectacular Crystal Nights were organised in Zadar during which tens of

17 houses were destroyed whose inhabitants had the wrong chromosomes."

18 Is that correct, Mr. Mesic? Is that what the Croatian newspaper

19 Feral Tribune said or did this Croatian newspaper lie when they said that?

20 A. There were crimes, and I always asked for them to be investigated

21 and the perpetrators to be punished. Croatia did not have sufficient rule

22 of law, and after all, that is how I won the election, because I have been

23 calling for true rule of law in Croatia. Crimes were committed and

24 perpetrators should be brought to justice. But that is no reason for

25 destroying Dubrovnik, for destroying Vukovar, for destroying Croatian

1 cities. Criminals should be prosecuted, but towns should not be

2 destroyed.

3 Q. Correct. Perpetrators should be prosecuted, perpetrators should

4 be tried, but the only question is: Who criminals were. Who were the

5 criminals? That's the only question. And criminals should certainly be

6 prosecuted and brought to justice, certainly.

7 So that is the whole point. That is the inversion that was made,

8 Mr. Mesic; isn't that right? You are testifying here that I was the one

9 who broke up Yugoslavia and you were in favour of Yugoslavia and any child

10 in Yugoslavia knows --

11 A. I think that we can reach agreement on one thing very quickly

12 here. I am not the person on trial here.

13 Q. Well, that's the point.

14 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's time, Mr. Milosevic.

15 Half past. Twenty minutes.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I'm going to show you now that you weren't speaking the truth a

21 moment ago when we were discussing an issue and questions about the people

22 who were fighting in Bosnia who were not volunteers. And when I asked you

23 about your nephew, who was also in Bosnia, a Croatian soldier there, and

24 he was not a volunteer. He was born in Slavonia so he was not from Bosnia

25 either and had nothing to do with Bosnia, and you said that that was not

1 true, not correct; isn't that so? Now take a look at your own testimony

2 in a case - or rather, when you speak about this same subject, it is page

3 7266 of the transcript - while you were testifying here in this same

4 building --

5 JUDGE MAY: This is, so we've got it, is this in -- not in

6 Dokmanovic?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, it isn't. It's in the other

8 case, the other trial, where Mr. Mesic was a protected witness. And so I

9 wish to adhere to the rules, although the Slobodna Dalmacija paper did

10 publicise this. I don't want to make explicit mention of it. And

11 Mr. Mesic, as we can see, is a witness, has been a witness in many cases,

12 a witness for the Prosecution, which also demonstrates this inversion.

13 JUDGE MAY: No. That's just --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That I was talking about. All

15 right. But this is what it says here. May I read it out?

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And I'm reading out your own transcript, not mine, when you're

18 talking about whether they were in Bosnia-Herzegovina. He says the

19 following: "Whether there were any, I cannot tell [In English] I was not

20 an inspector, nor was it up to me to establish it. But my nephew Vlatko

21 Mesic, who was a Croat soldier, he was in Bosnia. He came back from there

22 and he was not a volunteer in Bosnia. He was born in Slavonia. He has

23 nothing in common with Bosnia, but he was there."

24 Therefore, you told an untruth a moment ago. You even said that

25 your nephews were too young, whereas here in this transcript from your

Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and English transcripts.

1 testimony which was given under oath, you are saying something quite

2 different, in fact. Is that right, Mr. Mesic, or is it not?

3 A. My two nephews live in France, and two of them live in Belgrade.

4 And during the war, they were minors. It is a relation of mine, a distant

5 cousin. The interpretation of that was probably erroneous. Who said

6 that -- who told me he was in Bosnia. That is what he told me and that is

7 what I said.

8 Q. Very well.

9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I -- I didn't want to interrupt that

10 last exchange, given that it had started, but any further reference to

11 protected testimony should itself be given in private session.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't see why this should be given

14 in private session, Mr. May, when I am making no mention here of --

15 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- what it refers to, actually.

17 JUDGE MAY: Those are the Rules. Any reference to private-session

18 matters should be in private session. Yes, let's go on.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't see that I have infringed

20 upon your procedure in any way by having brought that up.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. When you were asked by a representative of the accused, did you as

23 a speaker take any steps for this matter to be investigated? Because of

24 course [In English] It is the assembly's responsibility regarding the use

25 of the army outside its border. Did you form a commission? Did you put

1 this issue on agenda --

2 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't, please. I don't want to

4 waste time. I won't carry on with that.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So when weren't you speaking the truth, Mr. Mesic: Now or then,

8 when you made that statement which was under oath again?

9 JUDGE MAY: He's given his explanation. If there's anything you

10 want to add, Mr. Mesic, you can.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The direct question was whether my

12 nephew was there, and I said no. A relative, a relation of mine, was,

13 which means that individuals were there who were not born in Bosnia. But

14 apart from that one individual that I did know, I wasn't able to ascertain

15 who was there.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Now, whether you say nephew or relative or distant cousin or

18 whatever I read out here, that's what it said, so there can be no dilemmas

19 there or confusion. Let's move on.

20 Is it true that in your presence Tudjman said that at the end of

21 the war there would be 5 per cent of Serbs in Croatia, by the end of the

22 war?

23 A. Yes, that is what he said. He said that was his assumption.

24 Q. Is it also true that he said that Tudjman thought that the 1938

25 solution for Croatia was the best one when it was the banovina of Croatia?

1 A. No. It was Tudjman's position that as Vojvodina had been attached

2 to Serbia, and it was never under Serbia, even during World War II,

3 Vojvodina was under the main staff and headquarters of Croatia because

4 Serbia did not have one. And he therefore considered that Avnoj, the

5 anti-fascist World War II council had made a mistake when to

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina as a historical Croatian province had not been

7 envisioned as autonomous province within Croatia. So that position was

8 one that he always stood by, and he considered that Bosnia-Herzegovina had

9 to be a whole, a whole entity, and that it must be within the frameworks

10 of Croatia. But Avnoj, the anti-fascist council, did not take that into

11 account. However, in the electoral campaign, he stated the facts and said

12 that Croatia represented an oblong role with one section cut off. But in

13 that way, he did not move any proceedings to put that right and to ask for

14 alien territory to be attached to Croatia. After he returned from

15 Karadjordjevo, he said that Croatia was to receive the banovina borders

16 plus Cazin and Bihac, Kladusa, and he said, as Milosevic had told him, he

17 said: "Listen, Franjo." That's what he said. You take Cazin, Kladusa and

18 Bihac. I don't need that. That is what we refer to as Turkish Croatia.

19 That's what he told us. Now, whether that was what actually took place,

20 the accused knows that better himself.

21 Q. Well, of course there was no discussion about carving up Bosnia.

22 We have already had that discussion here. But your explanations are

23 becoming relevant for you. So to recap: You weren't telling the truth

24 with respect to the presence in Bosnia, and later on I am going to call

25 evidence --

* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-5.htm