1 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. The witness has said

2 he's telling the truth. Now, don't misrepresent the evidence. If you've

3 got a question, you can ask it.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that we differ because of

5 the translation in your transcript, where it says nephew, and he says

6 relative or distant cousin, whereas otherwise there is no difference.

7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Now, to get back to what you were just saying, that you had no

9 intentions of any kind, Globus, the paper, this is a special edition,

10 November 1, 1999, which says the following:

11 "Tudjman was in Canada, paid a state visit to Canada in 1988 and

12 1989 [As interpreted] -- 1998 and 1999, and dovetailed concepts, first

13 that Croatia had to be independent and autonomous, and so on and so

14 forth. Third, that the Serbs must be brought to the level of a national

15 minority, which meant that Croatia should have been more or less

16 ethnically pure. And fourth, if there are Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina to

17 the extent that they cannot all be expelled to Serbia, all that remains is

18 to carve up Bosnia-Herzegovina, which will ensure pure Croatian regions

19 and certain restructuring, and this would be joined onto an ethnically

20 pure Croatian state." Isn't that right, Mr. Mesic?

21 A. I don't know who said that.

22 Q. This is something that can be read in Globus about a plan that was

23 dovetailed in 1988 and 1989 [As interpreted] in Canada with the Ustasha

24 émigrés. Do you know at all about that?

25 A. I know nothing about that plan whatsoever.

1 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, on the basis of what you were saying

2 a moment ago, is it true and correct that Tudjman considered the

3 territories that belonged to the 1938 banovina, that it should be annexed

4 to Croatia? Is that what he thought? Is that right or not? Annexed.

5 A. He said that that was what Milosevic had proposed.

6 Q. Just a minute. I'm speaking about something else now. I don't

7 want to show you the transcript once again, but you can look at the

8 transcript from that same trial where you testified and the number of the

9 transcript line is 7130. But to avoid having to go into private session,

10 I just want to jog your memory and tell you that you did speak about the

11 subject at that particular time.

12 And just as like a moment ago, when you challenged the fact that

13 Tudjman thought that for Croatia the best solution would be the 1938

14 banovina solution, also from your testimony, on page 7129 and 7130, you

15 said what you said. So tell me now: Is it true that the HDZ party for

16 you was an extremist nationalistic --

17 MR. NICE: If this line of questioning is to be of any value at

18 all --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.

20 MR. NICE: If this is to be of any value at all, the following

21 thing should happen: The Chamber will have to go into private session,

22 not because itself necessarily wants to. It simply that this was

23 protected evidence of another Chamber and we don't have rights to do

24 anything else. Second, the transcript will then have to be examined

25 properly with the witness being in a position to read it and the Chamber

1 being able to see the full context.

2 JUDGE MAY: At the moment I do not wish to go into private

3 session. It cuts up the cross-examination, makes it very difficult for

4 everybody else to follow. If there is a significant point here, no doubt

5 our attention can be drawn to it.

6 MR. NICE: Can I simply also then ask that the accused reminds me,

7 or through the Chamber, of what page he says its was on which the first

8 reference was to be found. He says 7266 but it doesn't match my page

9 numbering.

10 JUDGE MAY: That's the note we have, 7266.

11 Mr. Milosevic, you will have -- if you want to quote from the

12 transcript, if there's any significance in what was said earlier, do you

13 want to quote from the transcript, we have to go into private session.

14 Those are the rules which we have to follow. Now, if we can avoid doing

15 that, we should do so.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. May, but it is not proper

17 and correct that the public should not be able to see this, that

18 Mr. Mesic, for the most part --

19 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter about that. It is the Rules which

20 we have to follow. This was private session evidence, therefore it should

21 be dealt with in private session. Now, do you want to ask anything more

22 about that transcript or not?

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll ask him something

24 about -- something else from the transcript in the Dokmanovic trial, where

25 he wasn't a protected witness.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Is it correct that the HDZ is an extremist nationalistic party

3 which introduced a uniform, unilateral way of thought that captured people

4 in this way? Is that what you think? And you expressed words to that

5 effect in the Dokmanovic trial, where you were not a protected witness.

6 The transcript page is 1714 in the testimony against him, and that is

7 where you made a statement to that effect. You said that that was your

8 opinion later on, not straight away, not from the very outset. So when

9 did you come to think that way?

10 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. In order that the witness can deal

11 with this properly, have we got a copy of the transcript, Mr. Nice? First

12 of all, have we got a copy of the transcript.

13 MR. NICE: Yes.

14 JUDGE MAY: Secondly, can the witness follow it?

15 MR. NICE: It's in English, I'm afraid, so he probably can't

16 follow it, because his English is not probably at the level to deal with

17 that. But we have a copy for Your Honours if Your Honours haven't seen

18 it.

19 JUDGE MAY: We, we have it here.

20 Mr. Mesic -- I'll deal with it. Mr. Mesic, what is being put to

21 you in the passage which the accused is asking you about is counsel says,

22 counsel Mr. Fila, put: "We read that for you the HDZ is an extremist

23 nationalist party, a hindrance to democracy which introduced a single way

24 of thinking and which robbed the people. Is that what you really meant?"

25 And you replied: To look at this in terms of the period -- time period

Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and English transcripts.

1 involved. "Okay," said witness. "Have you said something like this?"

2 And you replied: "The statement of yours calls for clarification, namely,

3 when the HDZ was established first, when I was its member, when its

4 programme was elaborated, that was a party that was in favour of a

5 multiparty system for democratisation of free society. When the balance

6 of political forces in the HDZ changed, I left the HDZ and I became

7 critical of the policy."

8 So counsel then put: That is to say that this statement,

9 obviously referring to his earlier statement, is from the latter period.

10 And you replied: Yes, from the latter period.

11 Now, you're being asked about the comment that the HDZ was or

12 became an extreme nationalist party, a hindrance to democracy, introducing

13 a single way of thinking. Can you help us as to whether you said that,

14 and if you wish to elaborate on it, do.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the HDZ was formed, just like

16 the other parties in Croatia, after the socialist model, I wanted to have

17 a multiparty system. That's what I was in favour of, of a contest of

18 opinion of democracy. That's what I wanted. Now, as the threats were

19 coming from Serbia, threats which the accused himself, via his rallies,

20 was sending out to Croatia, and they were coming from Vojvodina, from

21 Serbia, and from Kosovo, the so-called rallies for truth, where it was

22 stated that the people attending the rallies would go as far as Ljubljana

23 and that what they would do was to stop over in Zagreb, topple the

24 government there, and carry on by way of passing. I considered that the

25 HDZ could mobilise in Croatia people for setting up resistance to that

1 kind of policy on the part of Milosevic, and I joined the HDZ because I

2 considered that we would be able to protect the interests of the Republic

3 of Croatia. However, because of the erroneous policy which prevailed

4 later on, or rather, the erroneous policy towards and vis-a-vis

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the wrong model of privatisation which was seen and

6 the insufficient functioning of the rule of law in the country, the

7 insufficient functioning of the institutions inherent in the rule of law,

8 I left that policy behind. I stepped down from it, because finally I

9 could still go on being the president of the Sabor parliament. I had to

10 take part in that policy and politics. But as I did not agree with the

11 policies, I left the post of president of parliament and joined the

12 opposition.

13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Mesic, you relinquished the post of president of parliament,

15 as you said a moment ago, only after the first quarter of 1994. However,

16 the destructive policy of the HDZ, according to you, began already in

17 March 1991; isn't that so?

18 A. Yes, you're quite right. From your agreement in Karadjordjevo.

19 Q. So you ascribe the destructive policy of the HDZ, you date it to

20 March 1991 and you ascribe it to me. Is that so, Mr. Mesic?

21 A. Well, if you offered the carving up and division of Bosnia, then

22 it is quite true that in part you did take part in the creation of the

23 wrong kind of policy.

24 Q. Well, as you well know, I never offered a division of Bosnia nor

25 was that our policy. And if you believe I did so, then please show me one

1 detail which would be illustrative of that?

2 A. Not only the division of Bosnia. It is sufficient that you paid

3 the army in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is sufficient to read the book written

4 by General Veljko Kadijevic, the Federal Secretary for National Defence,

5 who speaks precisely of the Virovitica-Karlobag-Karlovac border and that

6 you stood behind that border, Mr. Accused. That same person Kadijevic,

7 the Federal Secretary for National Defence, Blagoje Adzic, General Blagoje

8 Adzic, who was the Chief of Staff of the General Staff of the Yugoslav

9 army, never came to me. They never, ever came to me in the Presidency,

10 although I embodied the Supreme Command. They never came to see me. I

11 insisted -- it was I who insisted on going to see them. They never came

12 to see me. But if you read Boro Jovic and his books and if you read

13 Mamula and his books, if you read Veljko Kadijevic and his books, you will

14 see that the agreements were only and exclusively made with the accused.

15 Q. First of all, that is not correct. I don't know what they say in

16 their books. Mamula retired even before the tensions mounted in Croatia,

17 and later on in Bosnia. But I assume that you are a passionate reader of

18 all these various books. But now tell me, please: As you were referring

19 to the HDZ just now, in 1991 it started acting destructively, so how can

20 you put up with this for a full three years, staying in that destructive

21 party for three years as its executive chief, that is, as president of the

22 Executive Board of the HDZ?

23 A. The point is something else. I was the president of the executive

24 board of the HDZ. Let me tell you -- just a moment. From the 29th of

25 December, 1991 until the 7th of August, 1992. This is the period in which

1 I was at the head of the Executive Board of the HDZ. The point is that as

2 soon as I saw that the policy was not the policy I had advocated, I could

3 have relinquished it. That is true. However, in Croatia, I would have

4 been seen as someone who refused to face the problems Croatia was facing

5 at that moment, and it would have been thought that I had not done enough

6 to correct the things that were going wrong in Croatia. I hoped that with

7 those who thought the same way I did, I could correct the HDZ policy, that

8 we could win. That is why, with other representatives, or rather, with 23

9 MPs of the Croatian parliament, I discussed our leaving the HDZ. This was

10 in 1993. In this way, we could have achieved cohabitation. The

11 opposition would have been the strongest in parliament, and HDZ would have

12 held executive power. Things would have been different had we succeeded.

13 But unfortunately, I was not successful. Only 11 MPs followed me, and we

14 had one vote less than we needed to be the majority in parliament.

15 If you want to make a big change, you need to have a critical mass

16 with you. I thought that 23 MPs in parliament would be sufficient. We

17 did not succeed, but I went over to the opposition. So I cannot pinpoint

18 a date and say up to that date the policy was right; after that date, the

19 policy was wrong. There was a continuity of events in politics. When

20 enough things happen, one responds. My response was to try to contribute,

21 in a positive way, to a better climate and a better policy in Croatia.

22 Q. Very well. That was two years after March 1991, when you say that

23 the destructive policy of the HDZ started. You say that to start with the

24 HDZ was a democratic party and so on. In the HDZ platform, which I assume

25 you contributed to, together with the other leaders of the HDZ, you say

1 that the programme is based, among other things, on the teachings of Ante

2 Starcevic. Let me just remind you what Ante Starcevic said -- or rather,

3 wrote about the Serbs. He called the Serbs -- I don't know if this can be

4 translated. I wouldn't be able to translate it. He called them filthy

5 spawn, horrible slaves, people who were fit for the axe, Austrian dogs,

6 inflated bags?

7 JUDGE MAY: When was this kind of thing written?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ante Starcevic wrote, for example,

9 in 1870, because the witness based his programme on that of Ante

10 Starcevic, who wrote --

11 JUDGE MAY: You're saying that. The witness hasn't said it. Help

12 us with Mr. Ante Starcevic, who wrote 130 years ago. Was your programme

13 based on his writings?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I did not create the

15 HDZ platform or programme. It had already been adopted when I joined the

16 HDZ. Secondly, the teachings of Ante Starcevic do not consist of

17 particular statements that he made under various circumstances. Ante

18 Starcevic, who is referred to in Croatia as the father of the homeland,

19 advocated the idea that Croatia had to be independent. He struggled for

20 the independence of Croatia from Austria and Hungary. In essence, he was

21 a liberal. On the basis of Croatian state law, he demanded the

22 independence of Croatia. This is the part of his teaching that I find

23 acceptable, an independent republic of Croatia. This is what was taken

24 from Starcevic.

25 It was also mentioned, and the accused does not mention this, that

1 the programme was based on the anti-fascist tradition of the peoples

2 liberation struggle. The accused omitted this on purpose, on the

3 traditions of the anti-fascist struggle. So the ideas were not taken just

4 from one source, but from all sources contributing to a positive role for

5 Croatia and its citizens. That is why this was referred to in the

6 preamble to the programme. If we are to speak of history, the accused

7 should say what Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic wrote. He was a Serbian writer

8 who said that Serbs are all, everyone is a Serb, that the Croats were

9 nothing but Serbs of Catholic faith, so that all this should be Serbia.

10 JUDGE MAY: The Trial Chamber is not assisted by the exchange of

11 abuse, particularly abuse a hundred years ago.

12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Is it true that the HDZ policy became more radical with time and

14 that elements who found inspiration in the Croatian state during World War

15 II grew stronger? I'm referring to the fascist independent state of

16 Croatia.

17 A. The more attacks were mounted against Croatia and its integrity,

18 more excesses arose, and more and more people referred to the independent

19 state of Croatia. I was against this. I'm still against this policy,

20 because in essence I am an anti-fascist, and those are the ideas I always

21 struggled for.

22 Q. Very well. I asked you about what you said about the HDZ, not

23 about what you say about yourself.

24 A. That's why I left the HDZ.

25 Q. Very well. In any case, I see that as the president of the

* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-6.htm