1 are matters of argument. So, Mr. Milosevic, let's move on.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Mr. Mesic, is it clear to you that in that Yugoslav People's Army,

4 there could not have been a single officer who would have issued orders to

5 have innocent civilians executed?

6 JUDGE MAY: That is precisely the point, which is purely one of

7 argument and nothing else. Now, have you got further questions?

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have an enormous number of

9 questions left, but I have a present for Mr. Mesic, a map of camps for

10 Serbs from 1991 to 1996, with a list of all camps according to different

11 towns. 221, to be exact. When he goes back to Croatia, let him check

12 that out and then he can give an answer to this question, because

13 obviously he cannot give an answer now. Could you please have this map

14 shown on the ELMO. 221 camps.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't need that, because this

16 simply is not true. There were --

17 JUDGE MAY: Just let us see. What is this document that you're

18 producing, Mr. Milosevic? Where does it come from?

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The committee for collecting

20 information on crimes against humanity that were committed and violations

21 of international law, published in Belgrade the 5th of February, 2001. I

22 was no longer president of Yugoslavia then. On the 5th of February, 2001.

23 It is the committee for collecting information on crimes committed. This

24 is a map with all the camps and a list of all the camps in Croatia.

25 However, in all fairness, in Bosnia-Herzegovina there were 536.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. So you did not rank first.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please have this put on the overhead

4 projector so it can be seen.

5 JUDGE MAY: For what it's worth, this document may be put on the

6 overhead projector, the witness can look at it. He probably hasn't seen

7 it. It can be shown to the Prosecution.

8 And then, Mr. Milosevic, if you want to prove it, that is, you

9 want it exhibited, then you can prove it yourself when you call your

10 evidence.

11 Yes, Mr. Mesic, you can --

12 Don't interrupt.

13 Mr. Mesic, just have a look at that, see if there's anything that

14 you can say about it or not. You've heard where it comes from, you've

15 heard what it purports to be.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croatia did not have any camps, but

17 I do repeat: There were illegal acts, there were abuses, there were

18 crimes, and what I'm asking for is that every crime should be investigated

19 and the perpetrators punished. I am struggling for individual guilt to be

20 established. I don't want any collective responsibility. This has

21 nothing to do with the truth.

22 Q. All right. So you don't want to --

23 JUDGE MAY: Let the Prosecution have that document and then it can

24 be returned to the accused.

25 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Is it correct that among the generals that you refer to, that they

3 took part in operations in Bosnia, were Milivoj Petkovic?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please slow down. The

5 interpreters could not --

6 JUDGE MAY: You're being asked to slow down. Slow down, please.

7 A. Yes, some generals themselves said that they were in Bosnia, but

8 they said this subsequently.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. What did they say?

11 A. Subsequently.

12 Q. Oh, subsequently. Petkovic, Roso, you say that they were not

13 there?

14 A. I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying that they did not say

15 then, that they said afterwards that they had been in Bosnia.

16 Q. And is it correct that you said that the decision on the ethnic

17 cleansing of Muslims was not formally passed but that it was carried out.

18 Is that correct or is that not correct?

19 A. I imagine it is understandable that if everybody leaves a village

20 and that they were forced to leave a village, that that is ethnic

21 cleansing.

22 Q. Is it true that as far as Pero Markovic is concerned, the mayor of

23 Capljina, you said that he carried out ethnic cleansing?

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, how does it help? How is it relevant

25 whether an individual carried out ethnic cleansing in Bosnia? To deal

1 with an indictment? What you must understand is that attacking others is

2 not a form of defence, and therefore the relevance is strictly limited.

3 Now, what is under investigation in this trial is the activities which are

4 alleged in the indictment. For you to attack the others is no defence and

5 of little, if any, relevance. Now, have you got anything else you want to

6 ask this witness about his evidence as opposed to allegations that you

7 want to make about others? No doubt this institution has investigated and

8 will investigate those allegations against others, but it's of no

9 assistance to this Trial Chamber to make allegations about the conflict

10 between the Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats in 1992 and 1993 when

11 we're dealing with crimes alleged to have been committed by you and others

12 in Croatia strictly, but also in Bosnia.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what I'm bearing in mind is

14 precisely the profile of this witness. As for everything that happened,

15 he accuses me, first and foremost, then he accuses his former president

16 and his former political party, and his own generals, and he was the one

17 who gave them instructions, and he also accuses his own politicians, the

18 ones that he gave instructions to, in order to protect himself from

19 responsibility, which is vast, both in terms of the break-up of Yugoslavia

20 and everything else that he is now accusing the HDZ and Tudjman and other

21 factors of, under this slogan that this is the rule of law that he favours

22 and that that's what he's struggling for. And until 1994, what, he did

23 not struggle for the rule of law then?

24 JUDGE MAY: The accusations which a witness might make are not

25 relevant. It's his evidence which he makes and it's on that which you

1 must concentrate.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am testifying about the facts that

3 I know about. I cannot testify about those that I'm not aware of.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. Who destroyed the bridge in Mostar? Is it

6 correct that it was destroyed by the Croatian forces?

7 JUDGE MAY: I'm not going to allow the question. Move on to

8 something else, Mr. Milosevic. You really must deal with this witness's

9 evidence, not a generalised attack upon the Bosnian Croatians.

10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.

11 Q. Now, are the words correct by Imre Agotic, your military ally,

12 that were published in Zagreb that the greatest crimes were performed when

13 they were taking over the terrain, that is to say, when the MUP of Croatia

14 and the police were taking over the terrain?

15 JUDGE MAY: Which terrain are you talking about?

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 JUDGE MAY: No. Mr. Milosevic -- yes. Another question, and move

18 off this topic. Move on to something more relevant.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. As you say that you didn't meddle and

21 interfere in this, is it true that you, as a high-ranking functionary of

22 the HDZ, personally went to Bosnia-Herzegovina and replaced Stjepan Kljuc

23 from the post of HDZ head in Bosnia? Is that true or is it not?

24 A. I did not replace him. I went there as an HDZ official, but that

25 has nothing to do with this trial.

1 Q. Well, it does have very much to do with this trial, because it

2 testifies to your direct involvement in the events in Bosnia, for which

3 you accuse me.

4 A. May I explain?

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, since you've been asked.

6 A. The HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina was under the influence of the HDZ

7 of Croatia, because ultimately the HDZ was the one that founded it. And

8 when the first president was replaced, the first president of the HDZ of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, then what we had -- what had to be done was for a new

10 HDZ president for Bosnia and Herzegovina to be elected. This could only

11 be done at a party congress. But that party congress was not scheduled.

12 A Presidency meeting was scheduled. President Tudjman asked me to go to

13 Siroki Brijeg, which is where the HDZ Bosnia-Herzegovina was meeting at

14 the time, to intervene in this method of replacement of Stjepan Kljuc, who

15 at the time was president of the HDZ Presidency for Bosnia-Herzegovina. I

16 got in touch with some people. I went to Siroki Brijeg. I spoke to

17 people there, and they told me that they supported Stjepan Kljuc. What I

18 said to them was the following: Kljuc, it is my task that he be replaced,

19 but that I talked to people and that he would be given a vote of

20 confidence if he tenders his resignation. However, what he did was indeed

21 tender his resignation, irreversibly, and went to Sarajevo. Before doing

22 so, he asked me: "How are you going to explain that away to Tudjman?

23 That is to say if I am given a vote of confidence, how are you going to

24 explain that to Tudjman?" And I said: "Well, I'll say the majority was

25 in favour of not accepting your resignation and you will remain the

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3

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5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

1 president of the HDZ party." And then he became afraid. He was afraid

2 for his own survival. He got into his car and left Siroki Brijeg for

3 Sarajevo.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. All right. And is it true that the various decisions which refer

6 to Bosnia-Herzegovina, not only the one you mentioned a moment ago, among

7 others, was taken by people in Zagreb, such as Vice Vukojevic from Zagreb?

8 Was Vice Vukojevic a member of the Croatian Sabor or parliament?

9 A. Yes, he was a member of the Croatian Sabor, and he did appear in

10 uniform, in HVO uniform. Otherwise, his origins are from

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And I said to President Tudjman that I didn't like

12 what Vice Vukojevic was doing. I criticised him.

13 Q. All right. You talk to Vukojevic and he said that they had shot

14 people. Is that right or not, Mr. Mesic?

15 A. No, it is not.

16 Q. Well, you can find that in the transcript, 7063.

17 A. No. He said something else. I said something else. And please

18 don't distort what I and he said. He said that in the battle for Prozor,

19 the place called Prozor, a lot of Muslims had lost their lives, and I

20 asked him whether anybody had been killed on the Croatian side or perhaps

21 wounded. He said no, and that was all. I didn't have any further

22 conversation with him because I didn't think that you could have people

23 killed on one side and nobody even wounded on the other. And I never

24 spoke to him again after that.

25 Q. So you were angry with him, were you, because of that, because you

1 in fact ascertained that crimes had been committed, but you didn't take

2 steps at all. All you did was to be angry with him and you never spoke to

3 him again.

4 A. The accused is well aware of the fact that this was

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, their territory, and that I wasn't able to undertake

6 anything there. He knows that full well.

7 Q. Is it true that there were many members of the Croatian parliament

8 who went to Bosnia, many Croatian MPs who went to Bosnia during the war,

9 not only Vice Vukojevic but others too, wearing uniforms, to take part of

10 the war there?

11 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt now because there's a real

12 danger of this trial being totally sidelined about matters which were not

13 part of the witness's evidence, and that is namely the conflict in Bosnia

14 between the Croatians and the Muslims.

15 Now, Mr. Kay, you mentioned a matter earlier, and on the grounds

16 that this might be relevant in terms of credibility of the witness. But

17 obviously the Trial Chamber must keep the matter within bounds. The

18 witness's evidence is essentially about Croatia, although I'm aware that

19 Bosnia, of course, is also subject of an indictment and to some extent his

20 evidence may be relevant to that. The question is to what extent is the

21 accused entitled, if at all, to examine matters which at the moment appear

22 to have no bearing at all on the issues which the witness raised or indeed

23 the issues in the trial. This is a serious matter because clearly if he's

24 going to follow the same approach which he used before, which was to use

25 cross-examination as a vehicle to make allegations against the other side,

1 to what extent is he entitled to do that, do you submit?

2 MR. KAY: He's entitled to attack the credentials of this

3 particular witness, who has maintained during his direct examination that

4 he was only seeking to enforce the rule of law and was not a party taking

5 part in hostilities within the region. Plainly, the accused disagrees

6 with that and is attacking the knowledge of this witness as to what were

7 the real events within the region and the participation of himself and his

8 political party within those events. One appreciates that there is a time

9 limit on a witness giving evidence, and that is the real issue here for

10 the accused. Time spent on matters that are not productive of his defence

11 to the indictment obviously can cause him to be in difficulty in putting

12 forward a defence to the charges. But in many respects, we believe he is

13 aware of those issues. They have been sufficiently in force during the

14 trial, and attempts have been made by the amicus to ensure that he does

15 put his case and is given an opportunity to do so. In many respects,

16 where the subject of the Trial Chamber's ruling here in relation to

17 timing.

18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think the point is that he obviously is

19 entitled to test the witness's credibility by asking about matters

20 relating to Bosnia, but the real issue is: How far can he go down that

21 road? It would seem to me that once he has put a question in relation to

22 a particular matter touching on Bosnia and he has received an answer on

23 that, then he should move on to another issue. In that regard, he would

24 have been allowed to test credibility in relation to that matter, but I

25 think the issue being raised by the Presiding Judge is that apparently he

1 goes too far down the road, and that tends to take us into areas that are

2 not relevant.

3 MR. KAY: A helpful way may be to just make the point here that

4 the Trial Chamber is aware of the matters that have been put in issue by

5 the accused, that the Trial Chamber is aware that he has put in issue

6 various aspects of this witness's evidence, so that any reinforcement of

7 that fact is not further necessary.

8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

9 Mr. Milosevic, you've heard what's been said. You know there are

10 time limits. There is a question of how far you can continue to deal with

11 matters which are purely peripheral, and bear in mind, as has been said,

12 that the Trial Chamber realises quite well what you're putting in issue

13 and the challenges you make to the credibility of this witness. You

14 should therefore deal with any matters which you think are important,

15 which you might not otherwise be able to do so because of time, as early

16 as possible. Now, you are subject to time limits, and there will be

17 another seven minutes and then we'll have to adjourn.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I understood that in addition

19 to the time constraints and limits that have seen to be precipitously come

20 to the fore in the case of this witness, that I do have at least until the

21 close of business today. I think that is a minimum. But I think that it

22 would be in order if you were to give me a little more time, if you were

23 really to take into account the quest for truth.

24 JUDGE MAY: We have in mind the time limits taken by the

25 Prosecution. You should have roughly similar. You can have until 20

* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-8.htm

***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!

The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his defense.

Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and European Courts.

Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and experts from Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose media lies. Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some friendly and some hostile to the truth.

The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism, violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.

We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is happening in The Hague. Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging legal battles in the Dutch courts and before the European Court, about which more news soon. These efforts urgently require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of Yugoslav lawyers in Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we have an office and office manager available at all times, to compile and process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a base for organizing press conferences.

All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr. Milosevic to have the best possible support for attacking NATO's lies.

************
Here's how you can help...
************

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For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *

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